“It’s still immaterial though because verses 13-15 speak of an individual trial by fire.”
No, it does not. First, it is an ANALOGY. Paul compares the church to a building, and compares the ministry of himself, and Apollos and others to the work done on a building. He says some build with materials that last, and others do not.
He then says when the building is burned, the stone remains - but the straw is burned. And thus the fire “will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value.”
On Judgment, God will reveal to all if a minister did his work well, or if he did it in a worldly manner. There is no real fire. Why? Because it is a word picture, a parable. It gives a vivid illustration that shows we must take care to do God’s work in God’s way, so that what we do for God has permanent value - which it only has when it is done IAW God’s will.
If Joel Osteen is a Christian (which I doubt), then he is undoubtedly building with straw. Many praise him now, and he has a huge ‘church’. But on Judgment, God will reveal how many of the church members were actually changed, how many were actually saved, and what (if anything) Osteen preaches that God agrees with.
” Jesus gave them this illustration but they did not grasp the point of what he was saying to them. So Jesus said to them once more, “I do assure you that I myself am the door for the sheep. All who have gone before me are like thieves and rogues, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If a man goes in through me, he will be safe and sound...”
Jesus was not saying he was made of wood and swung both ways! It is a word picture, meant to illustrate (and thus teach) something that is true. It is not literal.
“Then, on the last day, the climax of the festival, Jesus stood up and cried out, “If any man is thirsty, he can come to me and drink! The man who believes in me, as the scripture says, will have rivers of living water flowing from his inmost heart.” (Here he was speaking about the Spirit which those who believe in him would receive. The Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.)”
Jesus didn’t mean Christians would start squirting water out of their hearts. It was a word picture, meant to illustrate a truth.
“For we are partners working together for God, and you are God’s field.
You are also God’s building. 10 Using the gift that God gave me, I did the work of an expert builder and laid the foundation, and someone else is building on it. But each of you must be careful how you build. 11 For God has already placed Jesus Christ as the one and only foundation, and no other foundation can be laid. 12 Some will use gold or silver or precious stones in building on the foundation; others will use wood or grass or straw. 13 And the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it.”
A word picture, meant to illustrate a particular truth - that ministers are supposed to work for God and under God, and we are to focus on God and not the individual worker - AND that workers need to make sure they are doing what the Boss wants!
Nor is it an individual trial by fire. The INDIVIDUAL is not burned, nor is he judged, if he is a christian! But - at it flat out says it! - “the quality of each person’s work will be seen when the Day of Christ exposes it”.
It cannot be made any clearer. There is no need for interpretation, since Paul is very explicit. It is very, very simple. Any child can read it and know what Paul meant.
“Really of course, again, the question comes down to wether or not one accepts the authority of the Catholic Church and her ability to teach authoritatively.”
Really, it comes down to this: Does the Word of God override the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Do the words of the Apostles and of Jesus carry more weight than the doctrine of Popes?
Unhappily, those who remain Catholic must accept the doctrine of the Catholic Church and ignore the plain and explicit teaching of Jesus and the Apostles.
You will notice that rccs have a problem understanding John.
I’m going to take my own advice I gave to Salvation and Biggirl earlier and just stop right now. I see no profit in continuing the same round about that’s been going on here (FR) for literally years. I find it amazing though that you, Mr Rogers actually believe that the “day” in verse 13 is indeed the Jugement of Christ yet STILL insist that when the works that are burned away, this isn’t a trial of the individual himself just his works. What else happens on Jugement Day other than a judgment OF the INDIVIDUAL. Sheesh.
I mean really think about it for a second: if someone goes through a trial in life that causes them to change something about their faith that’s going to be a “painful” experience some might even call it, colloquially “trial by fire”! Forget it.
Catholics don’t say Purgatory is a “firely place” filled with literal “fire” by the way. We fully acknowledge that that’s imagery a metaphor of the kind of purification that occurs at that time. There’s nothing in any dogmatic teaching that says it’s definitely fire or that it’s even for a long time it could indeed be instantaneous. The dogma itself only says that the purgation is a purgation of the individual, cleansing him of any venial sin and any attachment to sin. In fact the most likely source of any pain there is continued separation from God not any literal fire. But speaking of literal fire continue to construct strawmen and burn them in effegy, because that’s all the claim “Purgatory claims to use literal fire to burn away sin” is, a strawman.
It’s immaterial the apologetic texts don’t exactly describe Purgatory. They were never claimed to do so (by the Church) but the concept is there, especially if one concedes the point that the word “day” in verse 13 is one’s day of Judgement before the Lord!
Generally, the distinction between man and his work is laughable. What do you think the people are judged for, color of their eyes? We are always, at all points, judged according to our works (Romans 2:6).
True, as the novel and unScriptural Roman premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility is their real basis for assurance of doctrine. For which premise they invoke Scripture to support, only to tell us that we cannot know what Scripture consists without an act of faith in Rome, and that thus we must accept what she says it means.
In appealing to those who actually do hold that Scripture is the supreme infallible source by which doctrine must rest, they must resort to appealing to ambiguous texts which speak of judgment for sins as support for RC purgatory (EOs tend to differ), yet which either refer to this life or to the lost in damnation.
So they appeal the apocraphal book of 2Mac. 12, but which advocate offerings with prayers for those who are clearly said to have died due to idolatry, which according to Rome is a mortal sin for which there is no hope.
Thus they must resort to special pleading that maybe they repented in their dying moments, but died anyway due to idolatry. Yet the offerings for them was that they may see the resurrection, which those in purgatory are assured of, not that they may escape from purgatory.
(2Ma 12:40) Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead. (2Ma 12:44)
They also turn to 1Cor. 3:8ff, but which besides what you point out, only takes place after the resurrection at Lord's return, which is when rewards are given. , (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death.
The fire burns up the fake stones, which like the tares of Mt. 13:40 at the end, are represented here as wood, hay or stubble, while the precious stones with fire-tried faith (1Pt. 1:7) endure, and gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.†2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.†(Phil. 4:1)