Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun
I have been taught Dispensationalism from my mother’s womb. I was born in a dispensational environment. It was assumed at my church to be a part of the Gospel. There was never another option presented. It made sense. It helped me put together the Scriptures in a way that cleared up so much confusion. And, to be honest, the emphasis on the coming tribulation, current events that prove the Bible’s prophecy, the fear that the Antichrist may be alive today (who is he?) was all quite exciting. But what might be the biggest attraction for me is the charts! Oh how I love charts. I think in charts. And dispensationalism is a theology of charts!
The first time I came across someone who was not a Dispensationalist was in 1999. I am not kidding. It was the first time! I don’t think I even knew if there was another view. It was when I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary (the bastion of Dispensationalism) and I was swimming with some guys who were at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Once they discovered I was a dispensationalist, they giggled and snickered. They made fun of the rapture, the sacrificial system during the millennium, and the mark of the beast (which, at that time, was some type of barcode). It was as if they patted me on the head and said “It’s okay . . . nice little dispensationalist.” I was so angry. I was humiliated. I was a second-rate theologian. They were “Covenantalists” (whatever that was). But they were the cool guys who believed in the historic Christian faith and I was the cultural Christian, believing in novel ideas.
(Excerpt) Read more at reclaimingthemind.org ...
That.
Slaves don’t have a lot of options.
There is another way to expose these lies regarding the nature of God, but it involves explaining dimensional reality and I don't know if this is the forum upon which to do this nor if the heart of the poter is open enough to receive it ... perhaps that's why Paul said what he did about milk and meat. Sometimes simplistic statements serve most efficiently.
“poter” should read ‘poster’ fingers not yet limbered up for the day.
I try to use scripture in each of my post to validate my claims. I noticed you did not nor did you answer my questions. Since I cannot post entire commentaries out here, may I suggest a careful reading of the London Baptist Confession of Faith or listening to some of C.H. Spurgeon's sermons.
You want scripture? How will that help you since you are starting from apersepctive which contradicts the Bible? But here goes:
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that HE GAVE His only begotten son ... How is it love when you assert that we each are either going to accept or not based upon what God dictates rather than as an act of free will to love Him back or not?1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us. You are insisting that a god loves by compelling some to love Him back. Strange definition of love, and would not fit to the passage in 1Jn 4:19 because by your calculus we love because He forces us to love.
Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: By your assertion this is an act of petulance by your god figure because he is forcing those who love him and obey him to do so, thus his showy act of sacrificing himself to achieve something he will compel anyway is not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Nor is this the God of God's Grace in Christ, for if by forced puppetry then it is not grace but a pretend. Please note that if we have no choice but to be delivered, sacrificing Jesus on the cross is no longer an act of love performed for those who have a choice to accept or reject, but the showy act of a demigod puppet master.
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. It is not redeeming, is not a gift if the one for whom it is done has no choice but to accept what is offered. Grace only has meaning where the offer can go either way, accept or reject. if the thing redeemed was never anything but what it was created to be, unredeemed or lost in sin. And your calculus makes sin out to be something to blame on your demigod, not something sadly the result of a nature inherited from Adam, from which redemption is required. In Chess if one gets a pawn safely tot he eight rank, the pawn can be traded for any other piece but the King. If there is nothing to be gained by making it safely tot he eighth rank the effort to get there then being taken out of the struggle makes Chess a different game entirely. The threat of being promoted to a more powerful piece has significance which your calculus of God forcing all actions and reactions upon us removes. Threat presupposes choice to do or not to do.
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. This commandment is hollow if Adam and Eve could only do as the puppet master directs. The god you assert is duplicitous to command and attach direct punishment to an act that god will force them to break. Your calculus asserts God forced them to break the commandment, thus your god makes commandments which are not for good or evil but to show that demigod's power over his creation. Without choice there is no sin, for sin is then directed by your deity. That is the deity satan wnts you to see, and it is not the God of the bible, the Great I AM.
And finally recall the Bible says that satan TEMPTED Jesus. He successfully tempted Eve in the Garden and then tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness. There is no temptation if there is no possibility of free choice. Please, evaluate whom you have believed, for it si a lie from the devil himself to assert there is no free choice. There would be no temptation, no sin, and certainly no value in sacrificing Jesus on a cruel cross if there is nothing to be redeemed. To be in need of redemption something must be lost or sold out or removed from a previous state of ownership. Without free will there is no ownership in an individual for self, and thus the Great Grace of God in Christ crucified becomes a thing you don't want to blaspheme by defining it. IF you have acknowledge that Jesus is The Christ, then you surely can dig into the Scriptures and see Whom is The Christ on God's terms. By denying free will in humankind you cheapen the Cross and do violence to the Glory of God's redeeming work. HINT: you do not 'buy back'/ redeem something you never allowed to leave your possession.
Freewill is mentioned one time in Scripture, and not in the context of Salvation.
Paul addresses your objections in Romans Chapter 9.
It is difficult to reconcile free choice with predestination. You are trying to say that God would not do something that he has already done. Christ told Peter that he would deny him. Peter could not choose not to deny him though he probably tried. God does not have a backup plan; he got it right the first time. Everything that happens is part of God’s one plan.
My objections? Clarify ...
Romans 9.
The great mystery, and probably what ticks satan off so fully is that God is Sovereign of the Created Universe, and that He has given man sovereignty over himself, so that he may choose to Love God, or not. Lies such as this one --that God forces us to love Him-- are the hallmark of satan seeking to break the relationship and trust Believers have in God.
God can raise up stones to cry Hosanna because He is All mighty God Creator, or He can choose one child over another before they even leave the womb because He knows the end from he beginning. BUT knowing the entire scene does not make God responsible for the choices we make.
There is a particular passage I'm thinking about where God arranges events to reward behavior not yet exhibited. What kind of deity has joy when someone loves Him if that deity will not allow the one to not love if that is their choice? If satan had his way, everything would be compelled and every knee would bow and worship him without a choice in the matter.
If salvation is preordained for everyone who is saved, then it is not by Grace that we are saved but by the whim of the puppet master, the creator of mere automatons. THAT is not the character of The God of The Bible.
I just listened to Andrew Scourby reading the entire chapter. If you have a point to make from Romans 9, do so.
Let's use a simple thought experiment to explain:
There is a land called Flatland, and everyone living there has only two expressions of dimension space; they have length and width, but no height. There is nothing not in their plane which they can sense. You however are a three spatial expressions being, having length, width and height, so you can see the plane broadly where flatlanders can only see what is on their plane within their sight limits linearly and nothing below or above their plane, and only things that have a line of sight which intersects their location. You see a large sphere approaching one in flatland from above the plane, about to slam into the flatlander. You can see the large sphere and the flatlander even though the flatlander has yet to see the spot the shadow of the looming sphere makes on the plane. Are you responsible for the spot slamming into the flatlander when it does?
In 2Peter3:3-5 Peter refers to 'willingly ignorant' ... try to make sense of that sentence without 'they' having no choice but to ignore.
You might want to look at when God states Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated. It is not in Genesis, it is in Malachi, posted after more than a thousand years after the boys descendants works are accounted.
I would suggest a careful study of the scriptures and a harmony of the verses. Please note the verses you quoted and the context in which they are given:
Jn 3:16 For God so loved the world that HE GAVE His only begotten son ... How is it love when you assert that we each are either going to accept or not based upon what God dictates rather than as an act of free will to love Him back or not?
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Gal 1:13 For you have heard of my former life in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God violently and tried to destroy it.
Gal 1:14 And I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my own age among my people, so extremely zealous was I for the traditions of my fathers.
Gal 1:15 But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace,
Gal 1:16 was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with anyone;
On the contrary.
Second, in understanding that we are rebellious to God, we then understand not only our true nature as Christians before God, but we also understand the evil and rebellion of others around us and can have compassion. We know why we sin and why we must confess our sin. We can't say the "devil made me do it". We also understand why others sin.
Third, we understand God's love for us. That, as Paul, we are undeserving children of His grace and mercy. He opened our eyes and hearts. He set us apart for a purpose in doing His will. We rely upon His promise that we will bear fruit. Whatever happens in our lives it is for our good and best interest, and to bring Him glory and honor. And we have His assurance the He will lead us home.
Fourth, we know that God is in total control, though we see in a mirror darkly.
*begin sarcasm* Whisper to them in the times they consult The Bible, 'but of course, you have nothing to do with making that claim by your will, of receiving that Grace, since you are merely an automaton doing what your god created you to be, dangled from strings you welcome because they make you special.'
'Since you are not sovereign in your existence then you have all to boast of because your god made you for salvation while making others for hell. What a mystery that you even bother 'going into all the world to share the Gospel of God's Grace in Christ' in this Internet forum, since only God makes the choices, you just dance at the end of creation strings.'
'But then, the grace of your god really is no more than a divine caprice, which really doesn't require a Cross because none have the freedom to choose or reject so Great a means of escaping anything.'
'Justification has nothing to do with a choice you make to accept it, you're just pre-chosen to be justified. And that silly notion of sanctification by the indwelling Holy Spirit, well that too is nonsense since by choosing to make you saved somewhere during your lifetime needs no transformation because your god will pop you into a new being by his will alone, whether you like it or not. But then your god has made you so you will like it and others so they would not like it and he populates a hellish place with those he predestinated to be the fodder of hell's fires. In fact, since your god knows the end from the beginning and humankind have no free will to choose or reject your god's salvation plan, what's the point in us even discussing any of it further. Have nice day.' */sarcasm*
I write the above paragraphs dripping with sarcasm because I try to show the illogical of the image of the god you seem to believe is God the Creator. In all seriousness and with a humility I cannot even express in writing, if you are not given sovereignty over your choices then none of the other items in life amount to anything greater than puppeteering you along a timeline. Human conscience loses significance, other than a capricious weight the god you describe has placed upon some to torment them. Let's look at what that means regarding the message in The Word of God:
What the Bible calls Grace becomes capricious methodology since you will have not a single thing to do with having that Grace applied to your spirit because the god you describe has not afforded you a choice.
When Peter writes [2Peter 3:3-5] that some remain 'willingly ignorant' of God's Grace, Peter is mistaken, since your god so described has not given them choice to 'will' one way or the other.
Where the Bible speaks of Love, you can freely insert any other action/emotion, any other relationship, because that silly notion of agape is something compelled by the god you describe. 'For God so made the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever was made to believe in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.'
Where Paul speaks of the Law of Moses being a school master it is stripped of meaning, since learning is a pointless exercise because regardless of what you learn, you have no choice but to be the thing this capricious god has created for a destiny no more meaningful than pouring lead into molds to make lead soldiers.
With such a god as you ascribe, the Bible is empty rhetoric when it tells us of the extent of Love that God has for His creation, because automatons do not receive gifts, they merely behave and suffer the timeline they are made to follow. A Gift like His Son on a Cross is no more significant to automatons than Peter crucified upside down, or the life and image of Jim Caveazel in a movie, because automatons have no choice so one is as good a 'gift' as the other, and not a gift anyway, just the unfolding of what was made to be.
What a vacuous statement the assertion of no choice in matters makes of Jesus looking over Jerusalem and saying "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" [ Matthew 23:37 ] The 'humans having no sovereignty' perspective on the Truth in the Bible makes Jesus's words mere stagecraft, only recitation of lines written for a play, an imaginary reality, lines delivered in a Shakesperean drama. What happens to the following verses from The Bible, with no choice afforded the objects? ...
Matthew 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:Matthew 10:32&33 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Luke 6:47&48 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on the rock; and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it, because it had been well built
Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
If an individual has no choice then the meaning is empty. Whosoever becomes whatsoever. Yes, there are passages in Scripture which appear to teach that God has not afforded some a choice to be and do (100 years before a certain king was born, God's Prophet wrote a Kings name down and assigned him reward and job, to get Jerusalem rebuilt, as Daniel showed to the man who conquered Babylon the night of Daniel chapter five). But to make all of human History the same script is to make common the Grace of God in Christ, because it is not Grace at all if you have no choice but to accept or reject according to some script pre-written. That God can see what you will choose does not mean He made you make that choice, for good or for ill. So choose you this day to accept so Great gift, so Great Grace that He would take upon His deity the bands of human flesh and die in your stead, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. THINK! If you have no choice but to call upon or not then His Promise is nothing more than stagecraft. God forbid that we would reduce so Great Salvation to mere stagecraft by denying we have a choice to make.
Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Whosoever will may come.
Jonah 4: 11 But Nineveh has more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot tell their right hand from their left, and many cattle as well. Should I not be concerned about that great city?”
“God is the ultimate cause of everything.” Do you agree that humans have no free will to accept or reject His Grace, that we are forced to love Him? Is God responsible for your sin?
When Jesus came to Peter offering him the chance to repent of his denials, did Peter shoot back, 'But you put me in that situation to deny you thrice?' No, he was face to face with God with us, so he didn't try such foolishness. He responded 'You know I love you, Lord.' Was Peter forced to love Jesus? ... Think about it.
Correct, but let us not forget...
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