Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[NYer]

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,

And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:

In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).

Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:

For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.

Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:

Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.

But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:

So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 

Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!

[editor-surveyor]

.
>> “ If anyone’s name was not found written IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” <<

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This is why the book of life had to be opened. Nobody at the GWT will be written in that book. They will experience the second death.

[editor-surveyor]

.
>> “Now why didn’t I know that???” <<

English a second language? :o)

[Grateful2God]

Alex, it isn't intended to knock. The fact of the matter is that we believe differently on this issue. I've often asked questions in forum, because I was not aware that fellow Christian brethren believed what is mentioned above. My non-Catholic friends and i simply state what we believe as just that: our particular beliefs, but I never knew others didn't believe in saints until I got here.

In all honesty, your posts calling other non-Catholic, or ex-Catholic friends are usually among the first in the thread in these discussions. Please understand when it's the other way around, that we Catholics defend our beliefs against attack. Harm is not meant, but differences are a fact of life. May God give peace to you and yours!

[Grateful2God]

Conjuring up the dead, as Saul with the Witch of Endor, is forbidden.

[Alex Murphy]

Alex, it isn't intended to knock. The fact of the matter is that we believe differently on this issue.

When non-Catholics discuss how Catholics "believe differently", the posts/threads/posters are derided as being "virulently/rabidly anti-Catholic". A subset of Catholics goes further, and claims that Catholics never discuss the beliefs of Protestants. As this thread demonstrates, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

I've often asked questions in forum, because I was not aware that fellow Christian brethren believed what is mentioned above. My non-Catholic friends and i simply state what we believe as just that: our particular beliefs, but I never knew others didn't believe in saints until I got here.

[Grateful2God]

Is one who leaves because they felt nothing, or felt they didn't get anything out of it, qualified to judge the quality of another's catechesis? When I was a child, I spoke as a child. Perhaps when a person finds something new and is more willing to put in the time and effort, one believes they have found what they are searching for.

Good catechesis teaches that we, as Catholics, are to thank, praise, know, love and serve Jesus with our bodies, minds, hearts and souls, together with others, loving God, and loving our neighbors -including our enemies. And that isn't even touching the surface.

What one believes to be error can be another's whole reason for living. We should each be free to choose without pressure. And without derision.

Differences will always exist; they can be stated intelligently. "I believe" is a non-threatening, non-imposing way to state one's case. The other person has a God-given right to seek and find his own truth, a free will that God Himself does not deny His children as many here have.

[Grateful2God]

Physically dead, but with an immortal soul.

[Grateful2God]

When non-Catholics discuss how Catholics "believe differently", the posts/threads/posters are derided as being "virulently/rabidly anti-Catholic".

Padawan says, sadly, they often are.

[Grateful2God]

Physically dead, but with an immortal soul."

Where is that soul between death and the Final Resurrection?

[BlueDragon]

Some are; some aren't. It's what they believe; it is part of their religious DNA.

A Catholic Timeline of Events Relating to Jews, Anti-Judaism, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust From the 3rd Century to the Beginning of the Third Millennium Prepared by Jerry Darring

Are Traddie Catholics Anti-Semitic? by Fr. Dwight Longenecker

As you had said previously "The Catholic Catechism, on the other hand, teaches otherwise..."

Here of late. But not all that well -- and certainly not consistently, historically speaking.

"...and I am grateful not to be in an antiSemitic faith community."

[Grateful2God]

Doesn't that tell you that it was Catholic thread for a Catholic audience? Count how many of the first 25 were non-Catholic posts telling us we are wrong. Later on will come the ubiquitous post that we Catholics are damned to hell with all the non-Christians.

BTW, the Catholic Church does not teach that:

From: Lumen Gentium: "Light of Nations"

The Second Vatican Council speaks of salvation outside the Church in Lumen Gentium, nos. 14 and 16. Here are the pertinent sections from those two articles: 14. This Sacred Council wishes to turn its attention firstly to the Catholic faithful. Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism (cf. Mk 16:16; Jn 3:5) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved. [. . .] 16. [. . .] Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life.

---

As to the posts, observe not only the quantity, but the quality of the anti-Catholic posts. Name-calling; focusing constantly on chosen verses to justify the un Christian nature of the attitude toward Catholics; the side-bars with private jokes. And please do not tell me it is all out of love and concern for our souls, as the statement is frequently made that all but the "saved" or the"believers" are damned. There are too many whose posts reflect a morbid delight that the remainder of the world will spend eternity in hell.

My apologies to all non Catholic FReepers who are here for discussion; who are polite and kind and who state their beliefs simply and gently, without judgement. I have learned from you, and enjoy our discussions.

May God bless ALL our FReepers, without exception- and may we all rejoice one day together in Heaven!

[Grateful2God]

Reading the minds of 1.2 billion people? How does one truly know the state of another’s soul? That is between the person and God. Even then, in His Eternal Wisdom, it is He Who knows the ultimate truth.

[af_vet_1981]

Yes, I have posted Jerry's timeline before. I find Protestantism's standard defense of it's historical and persistent antisemitism is that it is always someone else's fault and I'm not persuaded that is the case. I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule.

Personally, I was especially moved by Pope John Paul II, of blessed memory, as well as particular Catholics. There were particular Protestants whose kindness I treasure.

After his election as pope in October 1978, John Paul often devoted his energy to improving relations between Jews and Catholics. He frequently met with Jewish leaders, repeatedly condemned anti-Semitism, commemorated the Holocaust, and established diplomatic relations with Israel.

One of his first acts toward reconciliation occurred during his visit to Poland in 1979 when he knelt and prayed at Auschwitz. Seven years later, on April 13, 1986, he made an even more dramatic trip, this one just across the Tiber River, to Rome’s Great Synagogue, becoming the first pope to visit a Jewish house of worship. There he warmly embraced Rome’s chief rabbi, Elio Toaff, and described Jews as the “elder brothers” of Christians.

“In his speech, everyone felt his love, his affection,” Toaff recalled. “He made a tie between Judaism and Christianity and, in doing so, he found a way to move us all.’

On the 50th anniversary of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, Pope John Paul II issued this appeal:

As Christians and Jews, following the example of the faith of Abraham, we are called to be a blessing to the world (cf. Gen. 12:2 ff.). This is the common task awaiting us. It is therefore necessary for us, Christians and Jews, to be first a blessing to one another (L'Osservatore Romano, August 17, 1993).

In 1994, John Paul established full diplomatic ties between the Vatican and Israel. He said, “For the Jewish people who live in the State of Israel and who preserve in that land such precious testimonies to their history and their faith, we must ask for the desired security and the due tranquillity that are the prerogative of every nation . . .”

The Pope also was instrumental in the publication of “We Remember: A Reflection on the Shoah,” the 1998 document expressing the Church's “deep sorrow for the failures of her sons and daughters in every age.”

He visited Israel in 2000, publicly apologizing for the persecution of Jews by Catholics over the centuries, including the Holocaust, and depositing a note pleading for forgiveness in a crack in the Western Wall.

[Grateful2God]

No, you don’t see praise, joy, love or any such thing in these posts. It’s about presumed salvation, gloating over the “unsaved” etc. Anybody ever thank Jesus here for their presumed assured salvation? Some are humble and kind, but basically, what we get here is a childish, playground-bully atmosphere of “I’m saved and you’re not!!!

[Gamecock]

*** I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule. ***

Exceptions?

BULL! Papal Bull that is. List of Papal Bulls on Jewish Question.

If the Papists are playing nice with the Jews it is a recent development.

[BlueDragon]

Doesn't that tell you that it was Catholic thread for a Catholic audience?

Then take it elsewhere. This is FreeRepublic -- not catholicculture.

Welcome to Free Republic!

---

Free Republic is the premier online gathering place for independent, grass-roots conservatism on the web. We're working to roll back decades of governmental largesse, to root out political fraud and corruption, and to champion causes which further conservatism in America. And we always have fun doing it. Hoo-yah!

---

As to the posts, observe not only the quantity, but the quality of the anti-Catholic posts. Name-calling;

I've been here for a long time. Many years.
Over the years I've not noticed all that much objection to quantity and "poor quality" of anti-Protestant commentary. Many threads originated by FRomans do appear to be simply that--- anti-Protestant, as are loads of 'comments'.

In fact, that (posting anti-Protestant claims) is often as rewarded and agreed to in "side-bars" -- including some of the very worst of it.

Recently though there has been some uptick of rebuttal threads themselves. If that is not to anyone's liking, then visit the gift shop on the way out the door and pick up some cheese to go with the whine.

"...focusing constantly on chosen verses to justify the un Christian nature of the attitude toward Catholics; the side-bars with private jokes."

Can you tell the difference between scripture passages which can serve as form of check & test in opposition to particular aspects of [Roman] Catholic theological positions, and statements made against 'Catholic' persons themselves?

How about determining the difference between opposing what a person does or says in comparison to a thing being mere insult?

If so, then apply that process as equitably to those whom criticize this or that which may be found within Roman Catholicism as one might to those whom seek to defend Roman Catholicism.

Let us focus one moment upon this one portion of Lumen Gentium;

Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation.

And just who or what is this "Church" being spoken of -- but from RCC perspective -- itself, chiefly and alone?

The above passage also makes it out to be that *they" are Jesus Himself -- thus God.

Mankind should never take a seat in the Temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

The secularist humanist do that very thing in their own way.

I reject both approaches in that I will follow neither of those ways...

It is simple.

We are not Him, and He is not ourselves, although He can be within ourselves, and ourselves within Himself, by Spirit, the Holy Spirit. John 14

[BlueDragon]

The point was that historically the RCC from highest levels on down has not consistently been all that much of a friend to Jewry, and at times very much a Jew's persecutor.

I find Protestantism's standard defense of it's historical and persistent antisemitism is that it is always someone else's fault and I'm not persuaded that is the case.

Some may engage in that sort of projection (of their own faults upon others) but by and large they can hardly hold a candle to what occurred within Roman Catholicism for long centuries.

And now here it seemed to myself that you had been engaging in "projecting" antisemitism onto "protestants" while failing to recognize what there was of that commonly enough among [Roman] Catholics!

Just wowza' man. The pointing finger has multiple friends curled back pointing towards it's master.

[af_vet_1981]

*** I find that Catholics are the most genuine friends Jews have among Christians, although there are always exceptions to the rule. *** Exceptions?

Yes, I am not aware of any Protestant faith group as friendly with the Jews as Catholics although I allow for exceptions. Trying to blame Catholicism for Protestant antisemitism is unpersuasive. If it were so, the solution today is still obvious: listen to the Pope when he says, "Every Christian must be firm in deploring all forms of anti-Semitism, and in showing their solidarity with the Jewish people."

[Elsie]

Nobody at the GWT will be written in that book.

Oh?

Says who?

[Elsie]

Hoosier was first...