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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: Elsie; Mrs. Don-o
You have always been good to me; even when I poke y’all in the collective eye with a stick.

I concur with that...

821 posted on 04/22/2015 3:24:07 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Elsie
There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those that understand binary and those that don't.

I always heard there we 2 kinds of people in the world...ME, and those that wish they were...

822 posted on 04/22/2015 3:25:40 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: DungeonMaster; EagleOne; Iscool; metmom
There sure isn't much difference between believing in multiple gods with different specialties and believing in multiple saints with different specialties and influence over one hard to reach God.

Additionally, there IS no solid proof that the "saint" to whom one directs his petitions actually IS in heaven and has said "influence" with the Almighty.

It always gave me this "woo-woo" feeling as a little kid learning about said "saints" and the things they supposedly experienced which convinced the powers that be to canonize them as "Saints" in the first place. Though many FRoman Catholics deny over and over that God's glory is NOT being "shared" by an unworthy creation of His, you can't help but remain unconvinced when you look into the various processes that go on to bring the Catholic church to the conclusion that said "saint" really is a "Saint". A certain number of "miracles" must be directly attributed to this person's intercession and verified (I think three (3) is the going rate). A life of devotion, or a trial of faith, or some miraculous event (usually described BY the would-be "saint") or a supposed appearance of a vision or apparition, are considered enough to get the ball rolling towards full canonization and being declared a "Saint", making this person venerable, or worthy of veneration.

I remain unconvinced, as I see the glory, honor, parades, feast days, portraits, statues, etc. done in the name of this individual, that the TRUE glory for anything that might happen is diverted from the ONE to whom ALL the glory belongs. Almighty God becomes a postscript to the praise directed to the "Saint" for their perceived "in" with God in order to get what is being asked for. Having Catholic family members, I don't recall the excuses reasons for WHY some requests fail to be answered. It never seems to be fault of the "Saint" - much like the failures of so-called "faith healers" when their gift does not bring about the healing needed.

Personally. I think it's a sham started in the early Middle Ages with "relics" designed to draw the gullible to pilgrimages - with their $$ - to the seat of religious royalty in order to KEEP them in power and luxury. I highly doubt St. Peter would have approved.

823 posted on 04/22/2015 3:29:51 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: af_vet_1981

Yes indeed. You are still mistaking what is being posted here and that aspect of the discussion. Deliberately, I wonder.


824 posted on 04/22/2015 3:31:01 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie

Matthew 24, 1Corinthians 15, 1Thessalonians 4:16-18, Revelation 20:6


825 posted on 04/22/2015 3:32:26 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool

The word says that the son is at the right hand of the Father.

It doesn’t say that we are to call anything a trinity, nor does it suggest in any way that they are three. Their spirit is how they come to us.


826 posted on 04/22/2015 3:37:57 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Iscool; editor-surveyor
He had his Son within him...And he within his Son...And they are both called Lord, as well as the Holy Spirit...

Who was in the burning bush? Go look. It will mess with your head.

827 posted on 04/22/2015 3:44:11 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: boatbums

A carnal religion, that one is.

I trust the Lord to care for all the sheep of that pen who are His and are being delivered from the evil around them via their ignorance/innocence/child-like faith in Jesus Christ alone.

Simply stated, I trust God to protect his Children wherever they may find themselves.


828 posted on 04/22/2015 3:49:35 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: roamer_1

Anytime God makes an appearance on Planet Earth in Scripture, I think of the One known as Jesus of Nazareth. Is that what you meant?


829 posted on 04/22/2015 3:51:57 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Elsie

Though I'd rather not get anyone down

those who have obviously been lifted up to places where

they don't belong should be given the boot.


830 posted on 04/22/2015 3:52:17 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: Resettozero

Should be a lower-case “c” on “children”.


831 posted on 04/22/2015 3:53:17 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Resettozero
Anytime God makes an appearance on Planet Earth in Scripture, I think of the One known as Jesus of Nazareth. Is that what you meant?

Something close to that. Really. Go read it. It is the 'Angel of the Lord' in the burning bush, who calls himself YHWH and I AM, and accepts worship.

No man has seen God, but many men have seen God, even walked with him, and ate with him - That has to be quantified, as both statements are true according to the Bible... As is this one:

Hear O Israel! Our God is one God!

832 posted on 04/22/2015 4:01:45 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Resettozero
Thanks for the link.

On Monday the Bishop Of Rome addressed Catholic followers regarding the dire importance of exhibiting religious tolerance. During his hour-long speech, a smiling Pope Francis was quoted telling the Vatican’s guests that the Koran, and the spiritual teachings contained therein, are just as valid as the Holy Bible.

“Jesus Christ, Mohammed, Jehovah, Allah. These are all names employed to describe an entity that is distinctly the same across the world. For centuries, blood has been needlessly shed because of the desire to segregate our faiths. This, however, should be the very concept which unites us as people, as nations, and as a world bound by faith. Together, we can bring about an unprecedented age of peace, all we need to achieve such a state is respect each others beliefs, for we are all children of God regardless of the name we choose to address him by. We can accomplish miraculous things in the world by merging our faiths, and the time for such a movement is now. No longer shall we slaughter our neighbors over differences in reference to their God.”

The pontiff drew harsh criticisms in December after photos of the 78-year-old Catholic leader was released depicting Pope Francis kissing a Koran. The Muslim Holy Book was given to Francis during a meeting with Muslim leaders after a lengthy Muslim prayer held at the Vatican. - See more at: http://nationalreport.net/pope-francis-followers-koran-holy-bible/#sthash.D05hcTxf.dpuf -


833 posted on 04/22/2015 4:04:53 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: roamer_1; Iscool

Yep!

He used every name that he could go by in that chapter.
.


834 posted on 04/22/2015 4:04:54 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: Resettozero
Yes indeed. You are still mistaking what is being posted here and that aspect of the discussion. Deliberately, I wonder.

Not at all; it is very evident there are nonCatholics and/or former Catholics here who do not believe that the Jews worship the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as they purport to worship themselves. The Catholic Catechism, on the other hand, teaches otherwise and I am grateful not to be in an antiSemitic faith community.

The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People.

When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God's revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews "belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ",328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 840 And when one considers the future, God's People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.

835 posted on 04/22/2015 4:10:12 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: CynicalBear
Well, see, there's a problem already. God was not the God of Ishmael.

False; both the Hebrew and Genesis indicate otherwise.

Both Hebrew and Arabic combine their language's respective word, not name, for God to form names. In the case of a Hebrew, El means God and in Arabic, alLa means "The God." Ishmael's name means "God will hear." The angel of the LORD chose his name.

And the angel of the Lord found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur. And he said, Hagar, Sarai's maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren. And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered. And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son's name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael. And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
Genesis, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses seven to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

836 posted on 04/22/2015 4:32:36 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Elsie

The same way you avoid stating the fact that Mother of GOD is not found in the Bible.


Elsie, I have stated in several posts that the phrase “mother of God” is not found in Scripture, including posts addressed to you. You might remember one such post where I made a type that you were quick to notice. See:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3271436/replies?c=713
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3271436/posts?page=744#744

There are many similar posts in that thread.


837 posted on 04/22/2015 4:33:59 PM PDT by rwa265
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To: metmom

Amen


838 posted on 04/22/2015 4:42:47 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7

Oh, they have one -- that they are still waiting to return to them...

Meanwhile, it seems to myself that some among them see glimmers of the Life (Spirit) of the Word -- though some seem to not see... being either wrapped up in humanism/secularisms that they've become untethered from their moorings (theologically-religiously speaking), or else to opposite extreme so letter-of-law hide-bound and hind-bound in thinking themselves (by blood lineage) descendants of Abraham they just might take up stones against anyone who dares tell them different.

839 posted on 04/22/2015 4:57:07 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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To: RnMomof7

Yes, Jesus did do that. Make unmistakable claim to being deity (God) but saying so in many ways included what else you also pointed towards;


840 posted on 04/22/2015 4:58:13 PM PDT by BlueDragon (...slicing through the bologna like Belushi at a Samurai Delicatessen...)
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