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On taking John 6 literally
triablogue ^
| October 16, 2005
| Steve
Posted on 03/29/2015 5:59:11 AM PDT by RnMomof7
On taking John 6 literally
Roman Catholics claim to take Jn 6 literally, unlike the Baptists. But what exactly does it mean to take Jn 6 literally, and who is more literal, the Catholic or the Baptist?
1.Here is what I take a literal interpretation of Jn 6 to mean. Some time around the year AD 30 or so, Jesus performed three nature miracles (the multiplication of food, walking on water, stilling the storm) situated on or about (the E. shore of) the Sea of Galilee.
The next day, in a synagogue located in Capernaum, on the NW shore of the Sea of Galilee, a debate took place between Jesus and the Jews, prior to the Last Supper, centering on a comparison and a contrast between Jesus and the manna in the wilderness.
2.What does a literal Catholic reading of Jn 6 amount to? They treat Jn 6 as an allegory of the Mass. What it symbolizes is what takes place whenever the Mass is celebrated, every day, in different parts of the world.
They justify this anachronistic and allegorical interpretation on the grounds that they deny the historicity of the original setting and substitute, in its place, a sitz-im-leben supplied by the life of the Johannine community at the tail-end of the 1C or so, residing in Asia Minor or Shangri-la. By they, I mean the standard Catholic commentators on John like Ray Brown and Rudolf Schnackenburg.
3.There is also a striking difference in how a Catholic and a Baptist defines a true body. For a Baptist, the true body of Christ would be the same sort of bodyindeed, the very same bodyas we see on display in the Gospels and Acts (
Mt 28:9;
Lk 24:39-40,
42-43;
Jn 20:17,
20,
24-29;
Acts 1:4;
10:41).
This would be the visible, tangible body of a 1C Palestinian Jewish man, of a certain height and weighta body that you and I would recognize for what it is.
For a Catholic, however, the true body of Christ is an invisible, intangible, unrecognizable entity hidden beneath the species of bread and wine.
One cant help noticing that the way in which a Catholic defines the true body and real presence of Christ bears a startling resemblance to those millennial cults (e.g., Millerites, Campingites, J-Dubs, hyperpreterists) which predict the visible, bodily return of Christ, only to redraw the terms of fulfillment when their prediction fails to materialize. They assure us that Christ really did return, and is truly is present with his people, but you just cant see him, thats all. He actually did come back in AD 70
or was it 1844?
or was it 1914?
or was it 1994?
TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; communion; mass; tradition
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To: CynicalBear
When you seek the Truth, you may begin to understand Catholic teaching. Read the whole article posted below and you may understand.
Your example is completely unrelated to the Real Presence and I did not state that he did not eat the small scroll because I do not know. The Bible does tell that he ate it and it tasted like honey. Your examples are just distractions from the main issue of the Real presence in the Eucharist that you try hard to ignore.
Why do Fundamentalists and Evangelicals reject the plain, literal interpretation of John 6? For them, Catholic sacraments are out because they imply a spiritual realitygracebeing conveyed by means of matter. This seems to them to be a violation of the divine plan. For many Protestants, matter is not to be used, but overcome or avoided.
God approves of matterhe approves of it because he created itand he approves of it so much that he comes to us under the appearances of bread and wine, just as he does in the physical form of the Incarnate Christ.
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist
In John 6:63 “flesh profits nothing” refers to mankinds inclination to think using only what their natural human reason would tell them rather than what God would tell them. Thus in John 8:1516 Jesus tells his opponents: “You judge according to the flesh, I judge no one. Yet even if I do judge, my judgment is true, for it is not I alone that judge, but I and he who sent me.” So natural human judgment, unaided by Gods grace, is unreliable; but Gods judgment is always true.
81
posted on
03/30/2015 9:09:00 AM PDT
by
ADSUM
To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
It is comforting to those of us who understand John 6 metaphorically that the RCC aligns itself with the view of the unbelievers who abandoned Him.
82
posted on
03/30/2015 9:09:42 AM PDT
by
dartuser
To: Rashputin; Alex Murphy; bkaycee; blue-duncan; boatbums; CynicalBear; daniel1212; Gamecock; ...
Jesus Christ Himself said, This is my body, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Apostles ate the real flesh and blood of Christ just like those who partake of the Eucharist do to this day. So I ask again..did Jesus and the apostles eat the REAL, ACTUAL , PHYSICAL body of Christ at the last supper? What part did they eat that He did not need?
He was naked on that cross and there is no mention of anything "missing"
Lets stick to the topic and not go down some bunny trails
Did the apostles eat the REAL, ACTUAL,PHYSICAL body of Christ at the last passover? How did they do that?
83
posted on
03/30/2015 9:14:17 AM PDT
by
RnMomof7
To: ADSUM
>>you may begin to understand Catholic teaching.<<
I do understand Catholic teaching. It's carnal and pagan at it's core. It simply manipulates and changes scripture in an attempt to give itself legitimacy.
84
posted on
03/30/2015 9:21:46 AM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: RnMomof7
It’s interesting that we never get an answer to that.
85
posted on
03/30/2015 9:22:46 AM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: RnMomof7
ROTFLOL . . .
What a fine example of needing a posse to help bury the Truth that someone doesn't want to accept.
Yes, they ate the real, actual, physical, body of Christ because Jesus Christ Himself, God incarnate, The Word made flesh, said, This IS my body.
Looks like when it comes to believing what Jesus Christ Himself said, "Faith Alone" boils down to "Faith that ain't Faith at all" which is in reality, as always,
Faith in Self and Self Alone
the real cornerstone of all Protestant and Protestant derived doctrine.
"Christians" who refuse to accept the words of Christ Himself are interesting, to say the least.
86
posted on
03/30/2015 9:34:00 AM PDT
by
Rashputin
(Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
To: ADSUM; CynicalBear
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827 permission to publish this work is hereby granted. +Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004This is not assuring that this is an INFALLIBLE teaching of the magisterium...it simply gives approval for Catholics to read it.
Could we please see the original document or statement that contains the interpretation is stated to be infallible.
87
posted on
03/30/2015 9:35:34 AM PDT
by
RnMomof7
To: RnMomof7
Did the apostles eat the REAL, ACTUAL,PHYSICAL body of Christ at the last passover? How did they do that? Paul in Corinthians says:
23For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, This is my body which is fore you. Do this in remembrance of me.f 25In the same way also he took the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me. 26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lords death until he comes."
He received from the Lord -- "for as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup..."
Sounds like the disciples ate bread and drank wine and not the actual flesh and blood of Christ as inspired by The Lord himself to Paul.
I would think if Christ was being literal, there would have been nothing of his body left to crucify. I don't understand why some denominations have an issue understanding this -- don't you?
Hoss
88
posted on
03/30/2015 9:38:08 AM PDT
by
HossB86
(Christ, and Him alone.)
To: dartuser; Salvation
Do a google search.
Maybe you will learn something.
It has been posted numerous times by salvation.
I think the most recent was in Sokolka, Poland in 2008 and it was scientifically determined to be heart muscle and blood type AB.
1996 in Buenos Aires and 1100 AD in Lanciano.
Your question; “Care to put that flesh on display for the whole world to see? .”
Yes the Consecrated Host is put on display at Catholic Churches throughout the world for adoration. Check your local Catholic Church for times. At my parish it will be on display until midnight Thursday as we remember and celebrate the Last Supper. It is a wonderful experience to honor God and pray in His presence.
The Consecrated Host as the Body and Blood of Christ are also on display during a Catholic Mass.
89
posted on
03/30/2015 9:45:15 AM PDT
by
ADSUM
To: Rashputin
""Christians" who refuse to accept the words of Christ Himself are interesting, to say the least." Well, then, have you torn out that offending eye and cut off that offending hand? Or would you claim that you are so pure that you have never "offended"?
To: Rashputin; CynicalBear
Yes, they ate the real, actual, physical, body of Christ because Jesus Christ Himself, God incarnate, The Word made flesh, said, This IS my body.What part did they eat...Jesus was using it at the time..
Dorothy believed if she clicked her heels together she would get home
Faith in faith saves no one, nor does it transport Dorothy home,having faith in something that was physically IMPOSSIBLE because someone said so,is not faith it is foolishness.
Jesus stood LIVING ...His blood coursing through His veins ... His flesh intact ...Jesus was Human , needing all those body parts..he was fully human and could not be in 2 places at once
His words should have caused rebellion, for the sinless Savior was inviting them to sin WITH HIM by breaking Levitical law ... that would mean He could not have saved us on the cross, because He would have been a sinner ...no more "spotless lamb "
It is so strange that Romanists mock the idea of salvation by faith alone and yet trust their eternity to men ..Sola Eccliesia.
91
posted on
03/30/2015 9:54:20 AM PDT
by
RnMomof7
To: dartuser
92
posted on
03/30/2015 9:57:14 AM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: dartuser
93
posted on
03/30/2015 9:57:36 AM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: ADSUM
94
posted on
03/30/2015 10:10:56 AM PDT
by
ADSUM
To: HossB86
I Cor 10:16 The chalice of benediction, which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ ? And the bread, which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord ? To which the Self and Self Alone folks reply
"No it ain't cause that would destroy the body of Christ"
Oh ye of little faith.
95
posted on
03/30/2015 10:20:22 AM PDT
by
Rashputin
(Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
To: Rashputin
“Jesus Christ Himself said, This is my body, which proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Apostles ate the real flesh and blood of Christ just like those who partake of the Eucharist do to this day.”
So Jesus never spoke figuratively?
To: Boogieman
Oh, like when He ripped the door off of a house, held it up, and said, "This door is me"?
Oh ye of little faith.
97
posted on
03/30/2015 10:22:40 AM PDT
by
Rashputin
(Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
To: Rashputin
"communion" = participation. Doesn't mean it's the actual blood of Christ.
As long as you eat this BREAD and drink this CUP....
Oh, ye of great misinterpretation...
Hoss
98
posted on
03/30/2015 10:25:31 AM PDT
by
HossB86
(Christ, and Him alone.)
To: Rashputin
Oh, like when He ripped the door off of a house, held it up, and said, "This door is me"? You prove the point - - was Christ a door? A vine? A cornerstone?
No? Then he DID use figurative language. Just as he did at the Last Supper.
Oh, ye of great misrepresentation.
Hoss
99
posted on
03/30/2015 10:28:20 AM PDT
by
HossB86
(Christ, and Him alone.)
To: ADSUM; dartuser; Salvation
Yes the Consecrated Host is put on display at Catholic Churches throughout the world for adoration. Check your local Catholic Church for times. At my parish it will be on display until midnight Thursday as we remember and celebrate the Last Supper. It is a wonderful experience to honor God and pray in His presence. "And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods." Exodus 7:10-12
Exo 7:21 And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. 22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments:and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exo 8:5 ¶ And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Stretch forth thine hand with thy rod over the streams, over the rivers, and over the ponds, and cause frogs to come up upon the land of Egypt. Exo 8:6 And Aaron stretched out his hand over the waters of Egypt; and the frogs came up, and covered the land of Egypt. 7And the magicians did so with their enchantments, and brought up frogs upon the land of Egypt.
..Yes Satan is VERY good at producing false apparitions and miracles to deceive ... so Romes "bread miracles " are just part of a pattern that Jesus warned us about
Mat:
23"Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or 'There He is,' do not believe him. 24"For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25"Behold, I have told you in advance.
We have been warned ...The bread god is from the pit of hell ...
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