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1 posted on 12/24/2014 10:14:57 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

We have little brains compared to God. God is outside of time. This doesn’t mean He lives forever, but that He transcends time. The past, the now, the future are all the same.

We really can’t understand. We must live as if our choices have consequences. That much is clear.


2 posted on 12/24/2014 10:23:46 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: SeekAndFind
So - in short: By what means can God know what I would freely choose?

The mind of man cannot comprehend such things. He that created Man and Time has no trouble with such pesky things.

3 posted on 12/24/2014 10:24:38 AM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts (Life and death are but temporary states. But Freedom endures forever.)
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To: SeekAndFind
But suppose we think, as I do, that God does exist at every time that there is and so does literally foreknow the future. As you rightly point out, foreknowledge of free choices cannot be based upon inference from present causes, for that would imply determinism and annihilate free choice. So God must know future free choices in some other way.

What a tortured answer! Try "you're too big to box with God." That's the answer right there.

4 posted on 12/24/2014 10:28:05 AM PST by Alex Murphy ("the defacto Leader of the FR Calvinist Protestant Brigades")
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To: SeekAndFind
A very limited example: I have knowledge that a certain large rock in a public park cannot be moved by an adult human acting alone.

Central Park, New York City

Walking through the park with a small child, he runs over to the rock and attempts to push it.

I "foreknow" that the child will be unable to move the rock. That "foreknowledge" has no effect on the desire of the child to make the attempt.

To take it a step further, I may order the child not to make the attempt, on pain of punishment for disobedience. If the child is habitually disobedient or defiant, I may have enough "foreknowledge" to begin mentally preparing to mete out the the punishment before the child leaves my side to go push the rock. This still does not alter the fact that the child has the free will to choose disobedience.

God knows whether we're going to go push the rock before we do. This has no effect on our free choice in the matter.

5 posted on 12/24/2014 10:47:50 AM PST by ExGeeEye (The enemy's gate is down....and to the left.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Hebrews 4:13
Psalm 33:13
Proverbs 15:3

God knows your every move.....


6 posted on 12/24/2014 10:52:09 AM PST by Roman_War_Criminal
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To: SeekAndFind
But if God exists timelessly,

There is nothing Biblical to support such an answer. It is very consistent theology that God exists like the early church believers believed in time like we do and that our actions are not a reality until they occur. Can God predestine certain events, i.e. like the prophecy of King Cyrus?- yes. But it is consistent with Biblical guide that our choices are not known from eternity past - God talks of evil that never entered His mind, Jesus marveled at a man's faith, God had regrets that he had made man. God knows all that is knowable, but our free will decision to live a life to bless and serve God is exactly that and a decision that God anticipates in real time(Luke 15:10).
7 posted on 12/24/2014 10:53:43 AM PST by RushingWater
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To: SeekAndFind

Doesn’t it say somewhere in the Bible that humans had gotten so bad, God regretted making them? That sounds like He didn’t know they were going to get that bad, and if He’d known, He wouldn’t have made them.


10 posted on 12/24/2014 11:28:25 AM PST by Nea Wood
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To: SeekAndFind

If God knows that you will freely choose to do X, then you will freely choose to do X. It is a contradiction to say that if God knows you will freely choose to do X, then you will be compelled to do X without choice.


13 posted on 12/24/2014 11:48:20 AM PST by Ethan Clive Osgoode (<<== Click here to learn about Evolution!)
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To: SeekAndFind

From this laywoman’s point of view, there are 2 ways to look at it. As an artist (or an engineer) and a creator of an object, I would know the medium (or properties) of the object.

Thus, I would know how much paint to use, or how much water to add, or how to mix the colors to get a result (or the stress point of a submarine or a support). So God knows what the stress points are and also the needs of His creation (maintenance or nature).

The other fact is that if God knows how many hairs I have on my head, He probably knows what my genes are going to do and He also knows what my mother went through while I was an unborn child (fetus) in the womb and how that environment effects my genes (turning some on or off). He also knows how I have been nurtured. Needless to say He knows us better than we know ourselves and better than even our parents know us. He knows every circumstance that we have ever been in and shares emotions and reactions as we do (more so, I think), especially since we are created in His image.

After I thought about this I have decided that I might get out of the boat and pray for God to bring about circumstances that will enhance my responses for His glory. He will have to chisel a bit because my joints are stiff and my heart may have stones in it (like kidney stones) but He does have a plan for us all.

He has won the war for our souls but the battles remain. What a fantastic military genius. What is it called - strategic command?


15 posted on 12/24/2014 11:55:43 AM PST by huldah1776
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To: SeekAndFind
So many arguments are ended with what I think is a baseless argument that God exists in all times at the same time.

I do not believe this, it sounds wonderful but because Christ too is God like His Father then he too would exist in the same way in all times, but, he told his Apostles that no one knew the time of his return including Him, only His Father. To me that denies the existence in timelessness.

I am not an intelligent philosopher like many here but that is what my little mind sees.

When my children were small I knew what they would do in a given situation, they never surprised me until they got older and had experiences and influences that I was not aware of. God is aware of all of our experiences and knows us better than we know ourselves. We would not be satisfied being judged on what we would have done, to our finite minds we must have the opportunity to make choices, good and bad and see for ourselves if we will make the right choices and to know the judgement is true.

It would be easy to say “I would have accepted Christ and followed His law.” It is another thing entirely to do it. Being judged without seeing for ourselves what we would do would seems most unfair to many or perhaps most of us. I believe that like I love my children so God loves us and wants us happy and created this earth so that we could see our own test results instead of being informed of what we would have done given the chance.

18 posted on 12/24/2014 12:38:06 PM PST by JAKraig (Surely my religion is at least as good as yours)
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To: SeekAndFind

“But then the will isn’t free - is it? “

Most often it isn’t. The ability to make free choices is a difficult skill to learn.


20 posted on 12/24/2014 12:46:09 PM PST by mrsmith (Dumb sluts: Lifeblood of the Media, Backbone of the Democrat Party!)
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To: sauropod

.


24 posted on 12/24/2014 1:06:04 PM PST by sauropod (Fat Bottomed Girl: "What difference, at this point, does it make?")
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To: SeekAndFind
I can foreknow free choice in ants.

Easy-peasy: Spread a trail of sugar.

The ants will freely choose to follow that trail every time.

I have foreknowledge, yet, no compulsion, no intrusion, and it's a free choice by the ants.

Greatly oversimplified, as I am no god, yet to an all-powerful, all-knowing God, it's surely even easier than that.

He isn't compelling us, but that doesn't mean He doesn't know what we're about to do. ;)

25 posted on 12/24/2014 1:41:55 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: SeekAndFind

Because God knows all things.....even what we are doing right now.


26 posted on 12/24/2014 1:46:43 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SeekAndFind

That is a lot to say about how God knows what choice we will make.

I see it like this. When God first thought to make man, and the system that would support him, He saw in an instant the whole history of man, from Adam to whom ever will be born in all time, all at the same time. He saw the results of Adams sin, that we would rebel against Him and that Jesus would have to come and take our punishment on Himself to heal the rift we made in our relationship with God and His with us.

God also saw at that instant all those who would freely choose to love Him, and those who would not. But, because He loves us all, He went ahead with creation anyway, because he loves us and wants us to live with Him forever. Does it greave His heart that there are those who will choose not to believe Him and what He said about our situation, and the remedie He provided for our broken relationship with Him, absolutely.

God is the only God, there is no other like Him. No other has provided us with a way to repair the sin problem we suffer with except Him.
We are responsible for the choices we make, good or bad and we must live with the consequinces of those choices, good or bad. Don’t follow your heart, it is deceptive and desperately evil, don’t follow your feelings, they are like a rollercoaster, up one day, down the next, or going round and round and leaving you exhausted and out of breath. Look into His word given to us to be a guide to reveal our true situation and the separation from Him and how He redeemed us back to Himself through His Son, Jesus. Its all in there from Genesis to The Revelation of Jesus Christ.


29 posted on 12/24/2014 1:54:09 PM PST by coincheck (Time is Short, Salvation is for Today)
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To: SeekAndFind
God does not foresee future events because for God there are no future events. For God everything is NOW.

God does not go through time, time is inside Him. Whether it is a straight line or a big ball of timey-wimey stuff, He knows, sees and holds it all inside Him.

30 posted on 12/24/2014 1:56:56 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Proud Infidel, Gun Nut, Religious Fanatic and Freedom Fiend)
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To: SeekAndFind; SoothingDave; Bloody Sam Roberts; Alex Murphy; ExGeeEye; Roman_War_Criminal; ...
I'm trying to sort out the matter of free will and God's foreknowledge, and I've come to understand that there is no contradiction between God's foreknowing a free choice, and that choice being truly free. Foreknowing doesn't equal determining.

What's strange about the question and answer is that there are no scriptural references whatsoever. No actual delving into the verses to see what they say, and what they say is that God both "foreknows" and "determines" what will come to pass. For God is not a Creator who refuses to govern His creation, but, in fact, rules over everything, even the smallest action or the life and death of the smallest animal. This is one of the strongest doctrines in all of scripture.

God rules over all matters of "chance," such as the casting of lots:

Pro_16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD.

This includes even the "chance" actions of men that results in a loss of life, despite their not planning to kill (see Deut 19:5 for an example of an "accidental" killing):

"He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death. And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee." (Exo 21:12-13)

Or the "chance" doings of evil men, such as invading at the best moment to rescue David:

1Sa 23:27 But there came a messenger unto Saul, saying, Haste thee, and come; for the Philistines have invaded the land.

God moves the heart of the King however He desires:

Pro_21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Even the words from our lips cannot utter forth but by God's permission:

“The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord,” (Prov. 16:1)

The man does not determine His own steps, but it is God who directs him:

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." (Jer 10:23)

"Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?" (Pro 20:24)

Man's life is not his own in any way, but it is God who has absolutely established the time of his birth and death:

Job_14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;

We are God's hirelings, our life is in His hands:

"Is there not an appointed time to man upon earth? are not his days also like the days of an hireling?" (Job 7:1)

This is true even of the smallest and most insignificant animals:

Mat_10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

He grants food to all flesh, and determines when it shall rain or when it will not, when the grass shall grow and when it will not; the withholding of it is His doing:

"Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains. He giveth to the beast his food, and to the young ravens which cry." (Psa 147:8-9)

"There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. These wait all upon thee; that thou mayest give them their meat in due season. That thou givest them they gather: thou openest thine hand, they are filled with good. Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust. Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth." (Psa 104:26-30)

The same is true of men, for whom no good thing can come unless it is granted from heaven:

Joh_3:27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

He determines who will be promoted and who will not, who will be rich and who will be poor:

“Promotion cometh neither from the east, nor from the west, nor from the south. But God is the judge: he putteth down ones and setteth up another,” (Ps. 75:6, 7)

Good and "evil" things come from the Lord. The loss of our jobs, our spouses, tragedies (upon first glance) on friends and family, all these things are from the Lord, though what seems evil to us is really for God's own good purpose.

For example, the selling of Joseph into slavery by his brothers:

Gen_50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

The tragedies that befell Job:

Job_1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

The evil acts of spirits ordained by God. Compare these two verses:

1Ch_21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel./2Sa 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

Another example:

"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so." (1Ki 22:20-22)

How does God remain clean of the evil deeds of evil spirits and of men, and yet be the first cause of it? Because what they mean for evil, God does for righteous and holy ends. It is a question of motivations. For example, 1) The devil wants to destroy, and thus he tempts wicked men; 2) men do evil, perhaps, because of jealousy and wickedness, and thus they willingly go forth when pricked; 3) but God works all for holy ends. Thus the former remain dead in their guilt, but God reigns supreme over all acts. Hence we read that the men who crucified Christ did so as they were both "foreknown" and "ordained" to do so, and yet are counted as "wicked":

Act_2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Act 4:27-28)

I like the way Augustine explains this also. From Chapter 33 of his book On the Predestination of the Saints, the chapter is titled "It is in the Power of Evil Men to Sin; But to Do This or That by Means of that Wickedness is in God's Power Alone."

"What is the meaning of, as concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sake, but that their enmity wherewith they put Christ to death was, without doubt, as we see, an advantage to the gospel? And he shows that this came about by God's ordering, who knew how to make a good use even of evil things; not that the vessels of wrath might be of advantage to Him, but that by His own good use of them they might be of advantage to the vessels of mercy. For what could be said more plainly than what is actually said, As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sakes? It is, therefore, in the power of the wicked to sin; but that in sinning they should do this or that by that wickedness is not in their power, but in God's, who divides the darkness and regulates it; so that hence even what they do contrary to God's will is not fulfilled except it be God's will. We read in the Acts of the Apostles that when the apostles had been sent away by the Jews, and had come to their own friends, and shown them what great things the priests and elders said to them, they all with one consent lifted up their voices to the Lord and said, Lord, you are God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein; who, by the mouth of our father David, your holy servant, hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the peoples imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the princes were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For in truth, there have assembled together in this city against Your holy child Jesus, whom You have anointed, Herod and Pilate, and the people of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and counsel predestinated to be done. See what is said: As concerning the gospel, indeed, they are enemies for your sakes. Because God's hand and counsel predestinated such things to be done by the hostile Jews as were necessary for the gospel, for our sakes."

All events, therefore, are for "our sakes," since they are under the control of God in order to work together for the good of God's elect. If any events are random, then, so also is their consequence, but the scripture dismisses this:

Rom_8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Even the good actions of men come from the Lord, of which many examples abound in scripture, but I will focus on the most important of all: Conversion! And not because He foreknew we would believe if given the chance, but because salvation is impossible for us who are dead in sin, and thus God must give us life so that we may believe in the first place:

Eph_2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

God grants us a new heart and moves us to obey His commandments:

"And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Eze 36:27)

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Php_2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Eph_2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Unless the Father gives you to the Son, you cannot believe or be saved:

Joh_6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

"'But there are some of you who do not believe.' (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, 'This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.' (Joh 6:64-65)

Note that in verse 64-65, Christ is explaining the unbelief of the Jews. He does not explain to them "because you refused," or "because you are so evil," but "Some of you do not believe. THAT is why I told you, no man can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." The reason for their unbelief is that it was not given to them to believe.

Hence Augustine concludes upon reading this:

"Noble excellence of grace! No man comes unless drawn. There is whom He draws, and there is whom He draws not; why He draws one and draws not another, do not desire to judge, if you desire not to err.” (Augustine, Tractate 26)

More verses:

1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Thus salvation is entirely of the LORD, and not by our own willing and working:

Rom_9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Why does God choose one over another to save? It is His business, not yours:

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom 9:19-21)

31 posted on 12/24/2014 8:08:01 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: SeekAndFind

God is not bound by time constraints. He knows everything and saw the outcome before He even created anything or anyone. Before you were born, He already knew you and everything about you, every choice you’d make, every sin you’d commit.


34 posted on 12/24/2014 8:47:11 PM PST by nicmarlo
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To: SeekAndFind

Bceause time (aging) does not exist in eternity.


38 posted on 12/24/2014 11:12:06 PM PST by Varsity Flight (Extortion-Care is is the Government Work-Camp: Arbeitsziehungslager)
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To: SeekAndFind

Such reasoning is simply the carnal man trying to understand the judgement of the Almighty.

His ways are past finding out.

Just hear his words, and keep them, for that is his command.

The God-fearing individual that wonders of predestination, must look at that mindset with questions like this:

“Is it God’s will that I believe and obey Acts 2:38, or that I disregard it’s commands?”

That should be obvious: Acts 2:38; is it from heaven, or of men?


41 posted on 12/25/2014 8:13:58 AM PST by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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