Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[Elsie]

...so you cannot say that the Church "interprets" passages of the scripture that came from her bosom.

But what about the DOCTRINE that seems to have come from lower on the torso?

[Elsie]

My position* is that the Holy Scripture does not teach he Protestant Sola Fide nonsense.

---

NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

 

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

[Gamecock]

In a nutshell, that pretty much sums it up.

[CynicalBear]

>>I go by what the Bible said.<<

Why would you even make such a statement? There is not a Catholic alive that "goes by what the Bible says". They go by what the "church" says. The Catholic Church is built on other than "what the Bible says". It's their stock in trade. They claim it is NOT the Bible alone. Non Catholics are ridiculed for claiming truth in scripture alone.

[CynicalBear]

>>So then "work" their is a work of Jewish law, not a general universal teaching.<<

Wow! There you go interpreting scripture. It doesn't say "Jewish law". Was James also talking about the "work of Jewish law"? You can't have it both ways. So which is it? Either both Paul and James were talking about "work of Jewish law" or they were not. Enlighten us.

[CynicalBear]

>>Can you explain why St. Paul says in Hebrews 9:27 that judgment follows death then?<<

Because the word "judgement" can mean two things as we can well see in scripture. We are to "judge" whether teaching is correct or not. "Judgement" does not always include accusation of wrongdoing. To believe that Jesus forgives all of our sins but then state that those sins will be again brought up at some later date is accusing God of lying. Either He forgives them and never brings them up again or He doesn't. Which is it for you?

[af_vet_1981]

I infer from this that you mean this as a (veiled?) insult for the way I presented the passage regarding regret vs. repentance. You probably know that in the AV the translators were faithful to the reader in that they italicized the words that they added to the translation that were not in the Greek text. So that is what I do when presenting the KJV/AV here so that the same faithfulness to the translation is observed. If this little detail is not observed, and the verse no longer distinguishes these added words, the the verse can no longer be presented as nor clain to be as from the Crown-Authorized Bible.

Also, the translation may be read leaving those added words out, without violating the translation or the sense of the original text from which it was translated. Sometimes when I present the passage from the AV, I may, without removing the added words (honoring the translators) do strike them through, so as to encourage the reader to read the passage eliminating the added words, and thereby see that the meaning may be a bit limited by the added word(s). In doing so, I have not changed the original text at all, nor the English sense of it.

Since a translation is not inspired, and what I have done is not dishonoring, the innuendo I take from your comment that I have done something to mar or defile the passage is unacceptable. You did not mean it as a scholarly correction, did you?

I know all that and more. I find it odd when Sola Scriptura adherents admit they don't really have a true translation of the scriptures, so that they must change it on the fly, to try to prove reformation of Christianity doctrines; seems like a circular argument to me. I note how readily they shed what the traditional Protestant and Independent Fundamental Baptist relied upon, the Crown-Authorized Bible. What is usually conceded next is that there are no original manuscripts upon which to base their new translations, and they often include the oldest known rather than the Textus Receptus.

[CynicalBear]

>>We are discussing Rev. 12, professor.<<

Yes we are, and Revelation 12 is the vision expressed in Isaiah 66. The woman is the nation of Israel, the twelve stars are the twelve tribes of Israel.

[CynicalBear]

>>No, that is not seen in the scripture.<<

Yes, it's in scripture as has been shown many times.

[CynicalBear]

I clearly showed where you injected the words “reject the gift” into a verse after you made the claim that you do no such thing.

[Elsie]

“It’s fun speculation,” Consolmagno said,

 

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/12/03/meet-popes-astronomer-says-hed-baptize-alien-given-chance/

 

 

[af_vet_1981]

I think you must have been an infant somewhere along the line. Were you "saved" at birth?

Yes, I am persuaded that had I died in childbirth, or reasonably thereafter, I would have been saved.

[af_vet_1981]

Are you asserting that babies are unsaved ?

I only asked a question which you did not answer. I didn’t concede anything. A baby hasn’t got to the point where he/she can make any kind of rational decision. That must have been you for several of the first years you appeared in this world.

Did I mistake you for a Calvinist ?

John Calvin on Infant Salvation
And the Apostle most distinctly testifies, that “death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned,” (Rom. 5:12); that is, are involved in original sin, and polluted by its stain. Hence, even infants bringing their condemnation with them from their mother’s womb, suffer not for another’s, but for their own defect. For although they have not yet produced the fruits of their own unrighteousness, they have the seed implanted in them. Nay, their whole nature is, as it were, a seed-bed of sin, and therefore cannot but be odious and abominable to God. Hence it follows, that it is properly deemed sinful in the sight of God; for there could be no condemnation without guilt. (Institutes, Book 2, Sec. 8)
“But how, they ask, are infants regenerated, when not possessing a knowledge of either good or evil? We answer, that the work of God, though beyond the reach of our capacity, is not therefore null. Moreover, infants who are to be saved (and that some are saved at this age is certain) must, without question, be previously regenerated by the Lord. For if they bring innate corruption with them from their mother’s womb, they must be purified before they can be admitted into the kingdom of God, into which shall not enter anything that defileth (Rev. 21:27). If they are born sinners, as David and Paul affirm, they must either remain unaccepted and hated by God, or be justified.(Inst. Book 4, Sec. 17)
And, indeed, Christ was sanctified from earliest infancy, that he might sanctify his elect in himself at any age, without distinction…This, at least, we set down as incontrovertible, that none of the elect is called away from the present life without being previously sanctified and regenerated by the Spirit of God (Inst. Book 4, Sec. 18)
“As far as relates to young children, they seem to perish not by their own, but for another’s fault; but the solution is twofold; for although sin does not appear in them, yet it is latent, since they carry about with them corruption shut up in their soul, so that they are worthy of condemnation before God (Ezek. Comm. 18:4)
“We ought, therefore, to hold it as a settled point, that all who are destitute of the grace of God are involved in the sentence of eternal death. Hence it follows, that the children of the reprobate, whom the curse of God pursues, are liable to the same sentence. Isaiah, therefore, does not speak of innocent children, but of flagitious and unprincipled children who perhaps even exceeded their parents in wickedness; in consequence of which they were justly associated with their parents, and subjected to the same punishment, seeing that they have followed the same manner of life…it was with their parents that the rejection began, on account of which they also have been forsaken and rejected by God. Their own guilt is not set aside as if they had been innocent; but, having been involved in the same sins as to reprobation, they are also liable to the same punishments and miseries. (Isa. Comm 14:21)
“I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God? Here the most loquacious tongues must be dumb. The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree. Should any one here inveigh against the prescience of God, he does it rashly and unadvisedly. For why, pray, should it be made a charge against the heavenly Judge, that he was not ignorant of what was to happen? Thus, if there is any just or plausible complaint, it must be directed against predestination” (Inst. Book 3, Sec. 23, 7)

[af_vet_1981]

The Lord sent Samuel to anoint David, David responded and was anointed, and the Holy Spirit was upon him thereafter.

Was the Holy Spirit was upon him even as he murdered another man so he could take the other man's wife in adultery ?

[annalex]

its own set of works

The "set of works" is in Matthew 25:31-46. Please review them.

As you can see, it is not really a "set" but rather it is a consistent behavior of charity ordered onto imitation of Christ and at the same time recognition of Christ's presence. This is why the best way to be saved is to study the lives of saints and to pray for their guidance; this is also why the Protestant so-called reformation did a great damage to souls and ruined many.

[annalex]

This morning I saw a dozen posts from Elsie and Cynical Bear.

I will now review them and if there are any worth answering I will. I don’t expect many will be in the category. If I miss anything of substance, please ask again.

[annalex]

This is what I said (I corrected the pronoun):

Romans 4:5 speaks of someone who "does not work" and later applies it to Abraham prior to his circumcision. So then "work" [there] is a work of Jewish law.

Circumcision is work of Jewish law.

"Judgement" does not always include accusation of wrongdoing.

LOL.

[daniel1212]

Wow! There you go interpreting scripture. It doesn't say "Jewish law".

To my knowledge, this interpretation of Rm. is not infallible or indisputable teaching, nor that Paul here is dealing with the same thing as James in cp. 2 (below*). While Paul refers to Abraham being justified before circumcision to disallow justification on the basis of the merit gained by law-keeping (though circumcision proceeded the actual giving of the law), yet the apparent reason for the law being that which is contrasted with justification b y faith to him that worketh not is because, as pointed out before,

"if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21)

The law was the epitome of all systems of salvation obtained by the merit of law-keeping, that by good works one becomes good enough to be with God, as Rome teaches. Abraham had done works before God counted him righteous because he believed God to do what he could not do, as must we under the law/salvation by moral worthiness, that is, to become good enough to be with God.

However, thank God He can cleanse and declare us justified as he did with the penitent publican and so-called "good thief" (Lk. 18, 23) the moment we believe , even though they would have sinned again if they lived any longer. If being in Christ and having eternal life depended upon attaining and dying as perfect in obedience, then one would be back under the Law, which Catholicism basically does, with added moral perfection of character added, but which claims to offer more grace so that one may attain this moral perfection needed to enter Heaven.

Which necessitates purgatory, without which most all Catholics would be excluded from Heaven according to their theology, yet not in Hell as they are neither good enough for Heaven nor bad enough for Hell. However, no one can really become good enough to be with God, and if salvation is based upon moral perfection, then those who lack it are only fit for Hell. Incorporating the atonement into this fails to help in the long run as it only provides for forgiveness and more grace to attain what the law and RC soteriology demands, but will not make one morally good enough in character. If it was sufficient to simply die forgiven then that would be obtained thru faith, not works, as is the positional righteous status God gives to those who believe, but who are not morally perfect in character.

To be sure, holiness as an attribute of faith, meaning a faith that effects holiness (according to grace given) is necessary to see God, as without it then it is no faith. However, both the the penitent publican and so-called "good thief" (Lk. 18, 23) and the unGodly who worketh not were justified by faith, and wherever the Bible manifestly speaks of the postmortem condition of the believers, or post resurection, it is always with the Lord. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff' 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3;2)

And indeed, the moment one believes then his heart is purified by faith, which faith is counted for righteousness, and he is washed, sanctified and justified in the name of Jesus and by the Spirit of God, (1Cor. 6:11) accepted in the Beloved and made to sit together with Christ in Heavenly places. (Eph. 1:5; 2:6)

This is all on Christ's expense and righteousness.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. (Romans 3:25-27)

It is impossible to read another system of salvation by works, earning Heaven thru the attainment of practical moral perfection of character, even if stipulated as being achieved thru grace, and Titus 3:5 broadly excludes "works which we have done" as not being salvific.

But i see these holy effects are justificatory in the sense of testifying to being a believer, and fit to be rewarded for what faith has effected, which God in unmerited grace as we owe God everything, and never would have even accepted Him unless God convicts, draws, opens hearts, and grants repentant faith, so that the soul can believe, (Jn. 16:9; Jn. 6:44; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) doing what he otherwise would not and could not do. And who then works in us to motivate and enable us to obey Him.

But which still does not make us perfect enough to be with God, nor does suffering the loss of rewards (1Co. 3;8ff) when Christ returns make us so (which some RCs imagine is purgatory) In fact, perfection of character tested virtue is not merely accomplished by suffering, but in this world with its trials and temptations.

Instead, just as the dying contrite criminal went to be with the Lord though surely not attaining moral perfection of character (and his only work was confessing Christ despite his condition), so also those who believe hold the beginning of their confidence/faith fim unto the end, (Heb. 3:6,14) repenting when they realize they have not, have eternal life now and will be with the Lord at death or at His return.

That i would always hold most firm confidence in Christ!

Catholic Encyclopedia on James vs.Paul:Catholic exegetes have become more and more convinced that the Epistle in question, so remarkable for its insisting on the necessity of good works, neither aimed at correcting the false interpretations of St. Paul's doctrine, nor had any relation to the teaching of the Apostle of the Gentiles. On the contrary, they believe that St. James had no other object than to emphasize the fact — already emphasized by St. Paul — that only such faith as is active in charity and good works (fides formata) possesses any power to justify man (cf. Galatians 5:6; 1 Corinthians 13:2), whilst faith devoid of charity and good works (fides informis) is a dead faith and in the eyes of God insufficient for justification (cf. James 2:17 sqq.).

According to this apparently correct opinion, the Epistles of both Apostles treat of different subjects, neither with direct relation to the other. For St. James insists on the necessity of works of Christian charity, while St. Paul intends to show that neither the observance of the Jewish Law nor the merely natural good works of the pagans are of any value for obtaining the grace of justification (cf. Bartmann, "St. Paulus u. St. Jacobus und die Rechtertigung", Freiburg, 1897). — Catholic Encyclopedia>Justification; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

[editor-surveyor]

The term you use, “Jewish Law,” is ambiguous.

Jews were known to follow both Torah, and the true “Jewish Law,” the Takanot and Ma’asim of the Pharisees.

Even the terms “commandments,” and “ordinances” can be ambiguous, and it is necessary to carefully examine the text in many cases, especially in Paul’s epistles.

In the case of James, it is safe to infer that he spoke of true Torah based acts of love arising out of spiritually guided faith. Its just not that easy with Paul, as his writings covered a much more vast array of human actions.

When he spoke to the Galatians he was clearly speaking of the pollutions injected by the Pharisees, but when he spoke to the Corinthians in chapter 11, he was very obviously speaking of the commandments that he personally taught them.

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[imardmd1]

Was the Holy Spirit was upon him even as he murdered another man so he could take the other man's wife in adultery ?

Your Bible disagrees with mine. Either that or you are again injecting your own opinion into the Bible account. David did not murder another man. That man, Uriah, was a warrior, and he died in battle as an honorable man, serving his king. While David asked Uriah's commander to put him at the forefront of the battle, you do not know that Uriah might have died in any case. For one reason or another, God wanted Uriah dead at that point. Are you saying that God could not have saved Uriah and brought him back to his wife?

The case was that Satan, the god of this world, provided the progenitor of Joseph and Mary a situation testing his obedience to God. If David had listened to the guidance of the Holy Spirit rather than the urging of his pecker, he would still have been Bathsheba's husband, yet without sinning by anticipating Uriah's death but instead, joining with Bathsheba after she became a widow. In any case, David's sin with Bathsheba was found out. He could hide it neither from God nor man. David was a sinner: saved, but still a sinner. Yet, being saved, he had an option--obey God or obey your own lusts. In it all, The God of the Bible, through Paul, proclained David as a man "after His own heart" (Acts 13:22) David was a sinner, and when He was guided by the Holy Ghost, the writer of a large portion of the longest book in the Bible.

God saves sinners. Before their redemption, humans stained with the crime of their father Adam have no power over their bent to give in to sin. They are not sinners because they sin--they sin because they are sinners.

Sinners who are saved also are tempted to sin, as Jesus was in the beginning of His ministry. And though Jesus by victory over death has broken the power of sin as a master, though they are regenerated with the indwelling Spiritual Advisor, and though they have the clear ability to choose the right thing to do and make that choice stick, sometimes they ignorantly or willingly through spiritual immaturity choose otherwise, and they do err.

When that happens, they are faced with another choice: do I humble myself, confess my sin, and repent, being forgiven by the Faithful, Just Father, and be cleansed of all unrighteousness; and go on walking in the light? or do I cling to my pride, reject The Counselor's urging, and go on walking in the dark, out of fellowship with God and other Christians?

David chose the former and was renewed in fellowship with The Father. More than once.

What about you? In the statement above, you make God's Word to be a lie, by calling David a murderer.

"If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:10 AV).

Now, if I sin, I have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ The Righteous One. But I know that there is another power, the prince of the air, who has his opwn advocates. You're not one of those, are you? Have you ever sinned? Have you ever looked on a woman with lust in your heart? Come on now, confess. If you have, or looked on an acquaintance with murder in your eye, wishing he/she were dead, you're no different than David.

The beam, man, the beam.

Who is telling the truth in this matter, you or I? (God will judge.)

One of us is not in fellowship with the Christ of The Bible, guided by His Spirit the Comforter, and proclaiming His Gospel as a herald, an unashamed workman, rightly dividing the Word of The Truth. One of us is walking in the dark.