Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[Mark17]

LOL, there you go again. I do not agree with almost anything you say. I thought you could not interpret scripture without a priest? That is what I was told when I was a catholic, so were they wrong? If they were right, why are you interpreting scripture, or I should say, why are you misinterpreting scripture? You are not allowed to do this. I can do it, but you can't. It is that simple. Thanks CynicalB, you did correct it properly 😄😃😀 I think there is a whole lot of scripture being misinterpreted, misrepresented, and twisted like a pretzel, to fit some sick religious cult. Daniel, what was that you said, not fit or something or other? I forgot, please fill me in 😄

[Mark17]

we must agree to disagree

You got a religion that is killing souls. That is a very sad state of affairs. I cannot agree to that.

LOL, there you go again. I don't agree with your iterptretation, which you are not allowed to do without a priest. I can interpret scripture, but you need a priest for that. We will have to agree to disagree. I can agree with that.

[daniel1212]

When the so-called one true church mandated exterminating souls such as us, sanctioning torture and death by the sword of men - one of many things in contrast to the NT church - and which certain RC posters who object to killing souls sanction and wish for, then it testifies to which religion really has and is killing souls, fostering even now those dangerous who callously would in service to mother church.

"...yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." (John 16:2)

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. (Galatians 4:29)

[af_vet_1981]

Leave it to you to fail to search and understand what is being said. But you could probably find something antisemitic in it. You have already marginalized yourself as one not fit to exchange.

"They just do not want to obey Rome - according to past injunctions, where were sin then but not now."

Your comment is illogical. I could not tell if you made it intentionally or in ignorance.

You are correct in one thing. If there is any antiSemitic in it I would find it.

[Mark17]

My goodness Daniel, you stayed in the Catholic Church for 6 years after you decided it was a false religion? 😇 I think I went to mass maybe 3 more times, before I decided I could not take it anymore. What I was reading in the Bible, without a priest to tell me what it said, was different than what I saw with my own eye balls. Glad you made it out bro, even if it took awhile 🎯

[boatbums]

That, even if true, does not change anything about the Canon. Those fathers were not Potestants; they did not go off to start their own pseudo-churches over this issue. The Church as a whole accepted the Deuterocanon as canon and rejected apocrypha. That is all there is to it.

Try not to lose track of your OWN argument here, annalex. You were the one who insisted Paul meant the "Septuagint" when he advised Timothy that all Scripture is given by inspiration of God. You also stated that, since the Deuterocanonicals/Apocryphals were in the Septuagint, it meant that Paul was referring to these books as well as the undisputed Old Testament ones. Since there is plenty of real evidence that the Apostles did not refer to these books as Divinely-inspired, they never quoted from one or said, "It is written...", and there was NO formal dogmatic statement of even the Roman Catholic church on the status of these book until the sixteenth century Council of Trent, then Paul could not have been conferring OR suggesting divine origin for these books when he wrote his epistle to Timothy in the first century.

And you are quite incorrect - the WHOLE church certainly was NOT accepting of these books as canonical seeing as they were STILL being refuted BY RC clergy into Trent and after - ALL fifteen of them. That really IS all there is to it. Why be so obstinate in defending what cannot be defended? By selecting seven out of the fifteen Apocryphal books in the Septuagint to place in their "official" canon, Roman Catholicism presumed itself in authority over God's divine word and continues to bring His judgment over the rest of the false doctrines and accursed gospel being preached there. They place faithful Catholics in a tight spot by expecting them to stand up to valid criticism about these disputed books or admit Rome was wrong. I almost feel sorry for y'all....almost.

[daniel1212]

My goodness Daniel, you stayed in the Catholic Church for 6 years after you decided it was a false religion?

I knew there were problems but which i could handle till i found a viable church, and the RC church was all i knew locally. I would try to witness to others but send them to an Assemblies of God in another town, the only one i thought was born again. Plus i was rather independent. This is not the Bible belt. If the preachers i head on evangelical radio had a church locally i would have went there.

But because i stayed, i can honestyl testify to the difference. After i humble prayed if God wanted me to go to another church, then right away the Lord told me (after i tried to tell someone about Christ, who turned out to be a believer) of an evan. church about 8 miles away. Which was not a dramatic changed for me, since i was an avid listener of evangelical radio for years, plus i had gone to some charismatic meetings and Prot. type Bible studies.

[Mark17]

Hang in there bro.

[boatbums]

What I find pretty ironic is that NOBODY here, other than the elitist FRoman Catholics, is recruiting people to join "their" church. Nobody is proclaiming that unless one is a Southern Baptist they are bound for hell. Nobody has claimed ONLY the Lutherans or Methodists or Evangelicals are going to heaven or alone can lay claim to being THE church of Jesus Christ. Nope, but that is something more than a few FRomans have declared openly. We can look at the Apostles and the gospel they preached that won thousands to saving faith in Christ and it was, and STILL is, the ONLY way to Christ. They never said people HAD to belong to a church to be saved. They said that salvation was by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and those who believed in Him would be made partakers of Christ and become part of His body, His bride.

I just find it amazing how differently we see things than those of the elitist type religions. It's how we can tell what is man-made from what is from God.

[boatbums]

Isn't it ironic that non-Catholic women Freepers are wrongly scolded for not obeying Paul's teaching about women being in subjection to men and how they should not be trying to “teach” men - even on an Internet forum, yet they will TOTALLY ignore their own Popes’ and magesterium’s restrictions on laity engaging in debates, arguments and discussions about Catholicism??? You're right...they DO marginalize themselves and amply demonstrate the futility of trying to talk sense to someone incapable of thinking sensibly.

[metmom]

Funny about that.....

[Mark17]

Isn't it ironic that non-Catholic women Freepers are wrongly scolded for not obeying Paul's teaching about women being in subjection to men and how they should not be trying to “teach” men

When I saw someone post that ridiculous statement, I almost fell out of my chair. It WAS stupid, and I don't think that person got any support from anyone. I have not seen it lately, but as I said before, we've got your 6.

[daniel1212]

Your comment is illogical. I could not tell if you made it intentionally or in ignorance.

Your past posts show your opinion of what is logical is hardly credible, and that you cannot figure out what was being said and why is consistent with RC cognitive dissonance displayed elsewhere.

You are correct in one thing. If there is any antiSemitic in it I would find it.

Even when it is not there, and only ignoring that of Rome. I do not follow Luther or past popes in their antagonism against Jews, nor recent papal politics.

[daniel1212]

Note i said these were past injunctions, where were sin then but not now. Likewise,

"No one shall pray in common with heretics and schismatics" - Council of Laodicea. The 1917 Code of Canon Law states: that: " It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics." [Canon 1258]

MORTALIUM ANIMOS: 10. So, Venerable Brethren, it is clear why this Apostolic See has never allowed its subjects to take part in the assemblies of non-Catholics: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_19280106_mortalium-animos_en.html

Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)

How does a Catholic sin against faith? A Catholic sins against Faith by Apostasy, heresy, indifferentism and by taking part in non-Catholic worship." (Catechism of the Council of Trent, and the Baltimore Catechism)

Rome, Italy, Feb 19, 2010 / 02:03 pm (CNA).- The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Cardinal Walter Kasper, announced this week that Pope Benedict XVI will visit the Evangelical Lutheran Church located in Rome on March 14 for an ecumenical celebration.

UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO: In certain special circumstances, such as the prescribed prayers "for unity," and during ecumenical gatherings, it is allowable, indeed desirable that Catholics should join in prayer with their separated brethren. Such prayers in common are certainly an effective means of obtaining the grace of unity, and they are a true expression of the ties which still bind Catholics to their separated brethren. "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them". - http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

Canon 229 §1. Lay persons are bound by the obligation and possess the right to acquire a knowledge of Christian doctrine adapted to their capacity and condition so that they can live in accord with the doctrine, announce it, defend it when necessary, and be enabled to assume their role in exercising the apostolate.

APOSTOLICAM ACTUOSITATEM POPE PAUL VI ON NOVEMBER 18, 1965, Since, in our own times, new problems are arising and very serious errors are circulating which tend to undermine the foundations of religion, the moral order, and human society itself, this sacred synod earnestly exhorts laymen-each according to his own gifts of intelligence and learning-to be more diligent in doing what they can to explain, defend, and properly apply Christian principles to the problems of our era in accordance with the mind of the Church.

GAUDIUM ET SPES, 28. Respect and love ought to be extended also to those who think or act differently than we do in social, political and even religious matters. In fact, the more deeply we come to understand their ways of thinking through such courtesy and love, the more easily will we be able to enter into dialogue with them. -http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html

[Mark17]

But because i stayed, i can honestyl testify to the difference.

I can identify. Even though I only went to mass maybe 3 more times, none of the guys that led me to Lord, told me where to go. They said that was up to my own prayerful judgement. Then I went to Vietnam. When I got there, I went to see the installation Chaplain, a Major, World War 2 veteran. He was a Southern Baptist, even though I had no idea what that meant. He was such a Godly man, I thought maybe there is something to this.

[Elsie]

Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

Psalm 116:15

Too bad that M-ry didn't die...

[Elsie]

I could not tell if you made it intentionally or in ignorance.

HMMMmmm...

That's mighty close to "I don't know" which is the definition of ignorance.

[CynicalBear]

>>I almost feel sorry for y'all....almost.<<

Ditto that! Time and time again the truth from scripture is posted only to be either ignored or denied by Catholics. The indoctrination by that church is obviously complete for some. Cultish adherence is the only way to describe it.

[af_vet_1981]

Your past posts show your opinion of what is logical is hardly credible, and that you cannot figure out what was being said and why is consistent with RC cognitive dissonance displayed elsewhere.

Your past posts show your opinion of what is holy catholic and apostolic is hardly credible, and that you cannot figure out what was being said and why is consistent with antiRC cognitive dissonance displayed elsewhere.

[af_vet_1981]

Even when it is not there, and only ignoring that of Rome. I do not follow Luther or past popes in their antagonism against Jews, nor recent papal politics.

Even when it is not there, and only ignoring forgiving that of Rome. I do not follow Luther in his rabid hatred for the Jewish people, therefore I do not appeal to him for doctrinal support since by his fruit and end it is evident he hated the least of Messiah's brethren. As for Catholics, including those Catholics who have wandered and abandoned the faith, they already know, or should know, that Messiah Himself will separate the sheep from the goats according to their works of faith, or lack thereof. Giving money to Jews for Jesus doesn't seem to be on the list except as said organization is feeding, clothing, giving hospitality to the stranger, and visiting those in prison, all of which good deeds require physical acts of kindness and mercy. Luther, and some other Catholics failed in this regard both in what they did and what they failed to do. May God have mercy on their souls.

Here is a brief timeline of the history of Catholic antisemitism.

A Catholic Timeline of Events Relating to Jews, Anti-Judaism, Antisemitism, and the Holocaust From the 3rd Century to the Beginning of the Third Millennium