Apologists Concerned About Rick Warren's Alignment With 'Holy Father'

Charisma News ^ | 12/3/14 | Mark Andrews

[marshmallow]

"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.

On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).

On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.

It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."

Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."

If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?

"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."

To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

I guess you won’t.

[Elsie]

[Elsie]

Göring: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.

Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.

[boatbums]

Truly, we cannot know what another person is thinking. But God knows.

I was thinking on this recently and it came to me that praying to created beings not only presupposes they have the ability to hear our prayers no matter where we/they are, how many others are praying the same prayers at the same time, but also the power to KNOW the thoughts and intents of our hearts. How many prayers do we say in our minds instead of out loud? Can they hear those, too? Can they know our motivations for what we pray about or the ability to know the will of God ahead of time and how it fits into His divine plan? I always believed that the devil couldn't hear my thoughts, couldn't read my mind, but, if angels and "saints" DO have that power, then they are gods, too! How else can it be explained? Some may rationalize this by claiming we don't know what power those in heaven have, but if we ascribe the SAME almighty abilities to them as to God, we are over the line into idol worship and cannot deny it logically. Far too much is swept under the rug so that the dogmas can be taught as true and the reason they are true is nothing more than "because we said so".

[Elsie]

...or religion; it seems!

[vladimir998]

“I guess you won’t.”

Ask your fellow Protestants if they believe Paradise is Heaven. If they say yes, then that means - according to your fellow Protestants - that the Good Thief’s soul was in Heaven the day he died.

[Syncro]

Is Paradise Heaven?

[vladimir998]

“Is Paradise Heaven?”

Ask Elsie.

[af_vet_1981]

Tell me, since you identify as a Roman Catholic, would you claim to believe EXACTLY the same as every other Catholic and they, in turn, believe exactly the same as the Magesterium? Or, would you honestly admit that there are many areas of belief within Catholicism that are "optional" and that even those who claim to be faithful Catholics differ with each other on even major doctrines of Catholicism? With that in mind, can you understand that a person identifying his or her "provenance" or preference of worship place is no guarantee that their beliefs will be discernible 100% of the time?

1. The LORD Jesus Christ did not leave us as orphans. We are related to the Apostles and Prophets; we are in the same family; Mary is our mother too. If the Jewish Apostles walked among us, posted on FR, as it were, would you conform your faith and works to obey them in every manner, or would you assert your independence and right to interpret the scriptures for yourself ?
2. See 1
3. Yes. Realize from my perspective there are so many cults out there and more forming every day.

We have had threads that discussed the Deity of Jesus Christ. It gets pretty easy to figure out what religious tradition someone follows based solely on their expressed beliefs on this subject and those who deny Christ's deity are almost always some kind of cult without them even having to name it. My point was that, whether someone goes to a Southern Baptist church or Methodist or Lutheran or a nondenominational Evangelical church, there IS unity on these major doctrines of Christianity unless an individual church has gone apostate. And, like I said, if you genuinely wonder what a person believes on a tenet of the faith, you can just ask. Knowing their denomination is superfluous. You ought to cease making such an issue over it as it comes across as demanding, unduly nosy AND petty.

Does it bother you to have someone in your alliance who teaches that abortion is not murder, that there is no soul created until the baby takes a breath outside the mother's womb. Therefore there is no scriptural prohibition against abortion.

[Syncro]

I thought you would have an opinion, or know the Catholic dogmatic view, concerning my question to you.

Is Heaven Paradise?

Thanks for the advice to ask Elsie my other question.

Glad to see a Catholic deferring to a dedicated Christian for Biblical answers.

He is very knowledgeable concerning Biblical Truths.

[nicmarlo]

Excellent point. Also, as to created beings, notice the angels when they appeared, ALWAYS told those to whom they appeared NOT to pray to them or bow to them. ALWAYS. Why? Because they are creatures, not the Creator.

On this line of thought, if there are “proper designated dead creatures” to whom live creatures ARE allowed to pray, I assume only the Catholic Church can designate the dead creature? From where does more authority derive to keep adding names to the roll?

Firstly, as this definitively NOT found in the Scripture, and doing so is in direct contradiction to the Scripture and the 2nd Commandment of God, where does the Catholic Church get its authority?

What about what Christ said, “a house divided cannot stand”? If God says one thing and a church doctrine says the opposite, that is a divided house....and says a great deal about the church and the people who swear allegiance to its doctrines over God’s Word.

As I know you are aware, this doctrine of praying to Mary and the dead in Christ contravenes the Fathers will, invalidates Christ, contradicts what the Apostles teach, and cancels out God’s warnings on this subject as given through the prophets.

[vladimir998]

“I thought you would have an opinion,”

I do.

“or know the Catholic dogmatic view, concerning my question to you.”

I do.

“Is Heaven Paradise?”

Ask Elsie.

“Thanks for the advice to ask Elsie my other question.”

Ask her, “Is Heaven Paradise?” - since that is the only advice I gave you.

“Glad to see a Catholic deferring to a dedicated Christian for Biblical answers.”

That isn’t what happened, but if it makes you feel better to believe something you’ve made up so be it.

“He is very knowledgeable concerning Biblical Truths.”

No, not really.

[Syncro]

“I thought you would have an opinion,”

I do. [No you don't]

“or know the Catholic dogmatic view, concerning my question to you.”

I do. [No you don't]

Thanks again for the advice to ask Elsie my other question.

Again, Glad to see a Catholic deferring to a dedicated Christian for Biblical answers.

Which you did when you did not have the answer to my question.

“Ask Elsie” = deferring (to one more versed in wisdom)

He is very knowledgeable concerning Catholic dogma. (<------- that's probably true too, but I thought I would ask a Catholic first out of respect.)

There is nothing wrong with not knowing an answer, there are plenty of Christians to "defer" to who would be happy to help.

[vladimir998]

Enjoy.

[Syncro]

Thanks, you too.

[CynicalBear]

>>Ask her, “Is Heaven Paradise?”<<

Well, there goes whatever credibility you had left and surely any hope of anyone respecting your reading comprehension. Elsie is a he and that has been clearly pointed out many, many times in these threads.

[terycarl]

Pam and her husband both prayed for my parents for many years prior to this. I accepted Christ about 6 months after my mother’s passing and my father about six months later. So, death bed conversions do happen.

fortunately for your mom's sake, that's not the way it happens.Mom was baptized a Catholic and saying I accept Jesus as my personal savior would be redundant. If your mother was truly contrite for her sins, whatever they were, she was forgiven them and went to Heaven as a proud and justified Catholic...Praise the Lord!!!

[vladimir998]

“Elsie is a he and that has been clearly pointed out many, many times in these threads.”

I know. I just occasionally forget because it’s a woman’s name.