Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
and they teach that those who had the faith and denied it......oh well, you know the rest.
I understand. May the Peace of Christ be with you and your family.
and a guy from one of the myriad of protestant denominations said"no you can't smoke, nor consume any evil alcohol, and be sure not to dance and there'll be no music in your service".......all are rather funny...and watch out for those snake handlers...
“How could you know?”
Simple.
1) It is not taught.
2) It appears no where in the CCC.
3) No where in scripture.
4) No where in the Fathers.
5) No where in orthodox Catholic tradition.
6) No where in the liturgy.
7) No where in song.
8) No where in art or architecture.
9) In no seminary.
10) It is not approved in any diocese.
11) Not approved by any bishop.
12) There are no approved books which teach it.
13) No approved radio programs that espouse it.
14) No approved TV programs that espouse it.
15) No approved groups espouse it.
16) No approved groups teach it.
17) It is a heresy and is not tolerated (Collyridianism)
18) No Catholic I know - and I have met thousands from around the world - has ever encountered it in the Church.
19) No Catholic I know has ever claimed to know any person who has encountered it.
20) Every practicing Catholic here at FR will freely admit that they do not encounter Catholics who believe Mary is divine and should be worshiped.
So, with over 1 Billion Catholics in the world, there is no sign of anyone actually worshiping Mary as God in the Catholic Church. Has anyone ever done so in the past? The Collyrdians did in late antiquity in Arabia- and they were excommunicated. A cult - apparently a cult of one or a handful of people at most - sprang up in the Philippines some years ago following a phony religious seer - excommunicated by the Church - saying Mary was part of God. And that’s that.
no such thing...
“If the titles meant the same thing, then why was there so much fighting over them?”
There wasn’t any. You are making the mistake of thinking fighting in the East in the 5th-6th century over Theotokos means fighting over “Mother of God” elsewhere. It doesn’t. The Nestorians didn’t believe in Jesus properly. That led them to deny the title “Theotokos” to Mary. Theotokos - God-bearer - really means mother of God (Mary bore God in her womb). There was no fight over “them”. It was one title. You keep separating them as if they are two DIFFERENT titles. They aren’t.
“I’ve read Catholics’ own words saying they prefer the title “God-bearer” over “Mother of God”. Are they wrong for thinking that?”
So now you’re asking me if someone is wrong over having a preference? Do you even think about these things before you post them? I prefer the Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic rather than Ukrainian. Is that wrong? NO! It’s a preference. There’s no issue there.
“Arguing for the Deity and humanity of Jesus Christ isn’t hindered at all by sticking with how the Holy Spirit referred to Mary in Scripture - the mother of Jesus. People made it an issue.”
Scripture says, “mother of my Lord” too. I don’t know why some of you keep avoiding that point or making excuses for how it doesn’t mean what it says. Jesus is the Lord and the Lord is God. Jesus is God.
“What’s “laughable” is the blatant ignoring of the many examples that are given that prove there IS a cult of Mary in Catholicism.”
Wrong. Of course there is cult of saints when the term cult is used properly. http://www.svspress.com/cult-of-the-saints-the/ Every saint in the Church has a cult. But when I use the term I use it correctly and not as a “cult” like Jim Jones’ cult. Veneration of Mary is very common among orthodox Christians. I don’t deny it for a second. What I do deny is this claptrap BS that we worship Mary. I have never done it even once. Mary is wonderful, but she isn’t God and I have never once confused the two and I have never met any other Catholic who has.
“A simple reading of the prayers, books, encyclicals, bulls, words supposedly said BY Mary in so-called apparitions, the parades, statues, kneeling, kissing, bowing down to, guilds, groups dedicated to her...I could go on.”
You could go on - but you would be wrong. Mistaking veneration for adoration is not helping your case. It just makes you look like you don’t know one thing from another.
“It’s obvious that no matter how many of these references are given, posted, pictures shown, books cited, it will NOT be accepted because there is as much spiritual blindness about Mary as there is about Jesus in Catholicism.”
The spiritual blindness is entirely that held by Protestant anti-Catholics. Post all the pictures you want. None of them show anyone worshiping Mary. Praying for Mary’s intercession in front of a statue of Mary? Absolutely! Worshiping her? Nope. Knowing the truth is not spiritual blindness. Anti-Catholics posting things over and over again that they distort to try and convince people who already know better that they are examples of something they’re not THAT is spiritual blindness!
“It’s there, plain as day, for anyone who hasn’t already shut their eyes to it.”
No, it isn’t there. That’s the whole point. Think about it:
prayers - not worship (prayer for intercession, which is what we do with Mary, is NOT worship)
books - not worship
encyclicals - not worship
bulls - not worship
words supposedly said BY Mary - not worship
so-called apparitions - not worship
the parades - not worship
statues - not worship
kneeling - not worship
kissing - not worship
bowing down to - not worship
guilds - not worship
groups dedicated to her - not worship
Not one, NOT ONE, of the things you mentioned is actually worshiping Mary as god. NOT ONE.
“It’s fine and good to say your religion doesn’t teach “Mary worship”, but actions speak louder than words.”
Right. And there are no actions which show a worship of Mary in the Church. I have never once seen a single approved prayer, liturgy, book, Mass, song, that any Catholics used to worship Mary ever. Not once.
“Denying it exists won’t make it go away.”
Repeatedly insisting it exists when there’s zero evidence of it and every Catholic here says it doesn’t exist won’t make it exist either.
God bless all of you.
“Yes, and no back up for false claims, they are just right because you post them. Got it.”Got it. If you post a false claim with no back up, it is correct even if it is not true.What I post is correct because it is correct.
they were outright, indisputably, unquestionably, objectively lying.
Oh my that is just what was done to me by...oops can't say it in the RF.
you were wrong about the contents of the video so I can’t see how you watched it, but you claimed you did.
No I didn't. That comment is false, in error, wrong and inaccurate.
As usual, I will not ask you for a link to where I "claimed" I watched it.
Plus you are right even when you are wrong. Got it.
... in regard to you falsely claiming what the video was about while you claim to have watched it.
My you certainly are on a roll with all the false, error ridden, wrong and inaccurate statements about what I did or did not do!
I did NOT claim what the video was about, and I did not claim to have watched it.
If you want to see the truth, go back and read what I actually posted. Read slowly. You will see you fell for my wording so I could find out what the video was about. It worked quite well!
This bearing false witness towards me is getting old. Are you a Christian?
I have no particular interest in being polite to people who make false claims.
Well above are several of your false claims about what I posted.
So now will you not be polite to yourself?
This is also addressed to all, so if anyone out there is bored and wants to see how inaccurate vlad's reading comprehension is, just read my post he seems to have mangled in his understanding of it...
And up pops the cult of if-you-are-not-a-catholic-you-are-a-protestant.
Been debunked many times right here on the Religion Forum.
There are more Christians than there are Catholics.
And personally be baptized, and personally go to confession, and personally attend mass every week, and personally take communion, and personally......
Oh boy!
200 more replies since I was last here!
Well; at least I can agree here!
Some things that call themselves 'protestant' NEED to have folks saved from!
Show me where the Scripture that you claim your church wrote and that if we read it, we’d know what Catholics believe, says that someone has to attend mass or it’s a mortal sin and they’re going to hell.
I hope that you are MUCH better now!
2 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
And you know this how?
You know the heart and soul and mind of all 1.2 billion Catholics?
Carnal knowledge
carnavore
chili con carne
carniceria
carnation
Purty good fer someone NOT 'divine'!
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