“If the titles meant the same thing, then why was there so much fighting over them?”
There wasn’t any. You are making the mistake of thinking fighting in the East in the 5th-6th century over Theotokos means fighting over “Mother of God” elsewhere. It doesn’t. The Nestorians didn’t believe in Jesus properly. That led them to deny the title “Theotokos” to Mary. Theotokos - God-bearer - really means mother of God (Mary bore God in her womb). There was no fight over “them”. It was one title. You keep separating them as if they are two DIFFERENT titles. They aren’t.
“I’ve read Catholics’ own words saying they prefer the title “God-bearer” over “Mother of God”. Are they wrong for thinking that?”
So now you’re asking me if someone is wrong over having a preference? Do you even think about these things before you post them? I prefer the Divine Liturgy in Old Church Slavonic rather than Ukrainian. Is that wrong? NO! It’s a preference. There’s no issue there.
“Arguing for the Deity and humanity of Jesus Christ isn’t hindered at all by sticking with how the Holy Spirit referred to Mary in Scripture - the mother of Jesus. People made it an issue.”
Scripture says, “mother of my Lord” too. I don’t know why some of you keep avoiding that point or making excuses for how it doesn’t mean what it says. Jesus is the Lord and the Lord is God. Jesus is God.
“What’s “laughable” is the blatant ignoring of the many examples that are given that prove there IS a cult of Mary in Catholicism.”
Wrong. Of course there is cult of saints when the term cult is used properly. http://www.svspress.com/cult-of-the-saints-the/ Every saint in the Church has a cult. But when I use the term I use it correctly and not as a “cult” like Jim Jones’ cult. Veneration of Mary is very common among orthodox Christians. I don’t deny it for a second. What I do deny is this claptrap BS that we worship Mary. I have never done it even once. Mary is wonderful, but she isn’t God and I have never once confused the two and I have never met any other Catholic who has.
“A simple reading of the prayers, books, encyclicals, bulls, words supposedly said BY Mary in so-called apparitions, the parades, statues, kneeling, kissing, bowing down to, guilds, groups dedicated to her...I could go on.”
You could go on - but you would be wrong. Mistaking veneration for adoration is not helping your case. It just makes you look like you don’t know one thing from another.
“It’s obvious that no matter how many of these references are given, posted, pictures shown, books cited, it will NOT be accepted because there is as much spiritual blindness about Mary as there is about Jesus in Catholicism.”
The spiritual blindness is entirely that held by Protestant anti-Catholics. Post all the pictures you want. None of them show anyone worshiping Mary. Praying for Mary’s intercession in front of a statue of Mary? Absolutely! Worshiping her? Nope. Knowing the truth is not spiritual blindness. Anti-Catholics posting things over and over again that they distort to try and convince people who already know better that they are examples of something they’re not THAT is spiritual blindness!
“It’s there, plain as day, for anyone who hasn’t already shut their eyes to it.”
No, it isn’t there. That’s the whole point. Think about it:
prayers - not worship (prayer for intercession, which is what we do with Mary, is NOT worship)
books - not worship
encyclicals - not worship
bulls - not worship
words supposedly said BY Mary - not worship
so-called apparitions - not worship
the parades - not worship
statues - not worship
kneeling - not worship
kissing - not worship
bowing down to - not worship
guilds - not worship
groups dedicated to her - not worship
Not one, NOT ONE, of the things you mentioned is actually worshiping Mary as god. NOT ONE.
“It’s fine and good to say your religion doesn’t teach “Mary worship”, but actions speak louder than words.”
Right. And there are no actions which show a worship of Mary in the Church. I have never once seen a single approved prayer, liturgy, book, Mass, song, that any Catholics used to worship Mary ever. Not once.
“Denying it exists won’t make it go away.”
Repeatedly insisting it exists when there’s zero evidence of it and every Catholic here says it doesn’t exist won’t make it exist either.
Catholic ascriptions to Mary:
We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218)
Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as “the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him,” (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm
Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands...because it is always humble and conformed to his will, the dispenser of all he possesses...What immeasurable greatness...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, “Hail, Mary”, while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,... Moreover, we should repeat after the Holy Spirit, “All the glory of the king’s daughter is within”.... Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues.” — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, miscl. http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/docs/true.doc
According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary’s name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173
In “Glories of Mary” by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
“He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost . . . O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. - . . Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach “ (From Judge Fairly, p. 5).
Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, “because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;” and “there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary.” — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html
The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. — Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII, 1894
But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. — The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48
“We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964).
“After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother.” p. 83^
..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:”To what shall I compare thee, or to whom shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem.” (Lam. 2:13) [another verse taken out of context, as it refers to the affliction of Jewish mothers in general due to the judgment upon Jerusalem.] —http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-098.html
...all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. — http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/virgin-eucharist.htm
“O Christian who comest full of faith to receive the Bread of life, eat It worthily, and remember that It was fashioned out of Mary’s pure blood.” Mary can quite rightfully beckon to us and speak to us in the words of the inspired prophet, “Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared” (Prov. 9:5).
“The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose.” — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185.
...”Limitless is the difference between God’s servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer’s Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother’s prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth.” [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
...”she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified.” “...she mediates between God and men.” “ “Run through all creation in your thought and see if there be one equal or superior to the Holy Virgin, Mother of God.” (Works taken from “Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey” contained in Newman’s “Difficulties of Anglicans” Volume II); http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/newman-mary.asp