Posted on 06/23/2014 6:17:59 PM PDT by Gamecock
amoreperfectunion:
That may partially explain it, I don’t think it explains all of it. Many priests left after Vatican II when the so ‘called spirit of Vatican II” never materialized, because the spirit of Vatican II was really not the Holy Spirit, it was a nebulous sprit that wanted the Church to conform to the modern world 100%, so many left for less stricter Churches with respect to certain moral questions that have been at the core of debates in Catholic circles [but there is a Rome that in end holds the line] and protestant groups, which are always subject to the vote of assemblies, thus issues like abortion, euthanasia, women clergy, same-sex marriage tend to split those groups. In Catholic circles, some men [priests] left over the Church not “changing with the times”, which explains a large part of the exodus and going to the Episcopalians, ELCA Lutherans and Methodists provided both a more liberal theology on those moral questions and a liturgical approach to worship.
I meant as a percentage of clerics going to serve in another faith. In many cases the more devout are discouraged from pursuing vocations...Agony in Albany, etc. I have heard similar things from people in Boston.
The Roman Catholic priest who serves the local parish in my town is a married man who converted from being an ordained Lutheran minister. He seems to be doing a great job. The parish is happy with him AND he was able to keep his wife.
Jesus spoke of celibacy (Matt 19:12) for the kingdom of heaven, and that is one part of the reason for celibate men in the priesthood. Another reason is that a family commitment distracts the priest from his parishioners. There have been a number of men who left the priesthood to marry, true enough. But if a priest has problems with Church teaching, that is a different matter entirely, and it is better for such men to leave the priesthood than stay and promote division and heresy.
You obviously don’t understand what a vow means.
Nice rationalization thou.
For the Greater Glory of God
I’m shocked: another thread about celibacy.
Nearly one-third of the 414 former Catholic priests now serving in Protestant ministry agreed to participate in my survey. Of the 131 respondents, 105 (80.2 percent) became Episcopalian, 15 (11.5 percent) Lutheran, eight (6.1 percent) Congregationalist, and three (2.3 percent) Methodist. I found a 40-year age range: the youngest was 42 and the eldest 82. Their mean age was 62.8 while the median was 64.
The “typical” participant in my study, therefore, was born around 1944. If we divide his life into seven 9-year periods, we find him immersed in Catholic devotions and rituals during the first two timeframes. His service as an altar boy and the encouragement he received from the nuns facilitated his entry into the seminary at the age of 18 in 1962. He dedicated the third period of his life, during the heyday of Vatican II, to preparing for ordination at the age of 27 in 1971. He spent the fourth phase in active Catholic ministry and struggled with his commitment to celibacy. At the age of 36 in 1980, at the beginning of the fifth period, he resigned from ministry, got married, worked for a few years in a non-ministerial job, and eventually began his journey to his new denomination. From 1989 to 2007, he served as a married Protestant minister, twice the amount of time he spent as a Catholic priest.
PFL
Because God would never tell you to do one thing and then tell you not to do that thing anymore.
“...young priests today are more theologically conservative than their immediate predecessors and are more likely therefore to embrace the church’s traditional teaching on celibacy.”
Liberals of any faith invariably hate the Catholic discipline of celibacy. Try to find one person who accepts things like abortion, ‘gay marriage,’ or female clergy who also thinks the Catholic discipline is valuable and should be continued. They just aren’t out there, as far as I can tell.
Freegards
It would be interesting if the data included evangelical churches, but it only included five mainline Protestant Churches (Congregational, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian), while most lay converts to Prot. are to evangelical churches*.
And not due to desire for more liberal doctrine, but overall due to spiritual deficiency they found in Rome.
But that RC priests - which the Holy Spirit never titles NT pastors, and which is a result of imposed functional equivalence, and with the defense of that title relying on etymological fallacy - would be more likely to convert to these liberal mainline denoms is to be expected, since these are the most like Rome, and perhaps they can be easily recognized as a "priest" in some.
*68% of those raised Roman Catholic still are Catholic (higher than the retention rates of individual Protestant denoms, but less than Jews at 76%). 15% are now Protestant (9% evangelical); 14% are unaffiliated. Pew forum, Faith in Flux (April 27, 2009) http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/fullreport.pdf
80% of adults who were raised Protestant are still Protestant, but (analysis shows) 25% no longer self-identify with the Protestant denomination in which they were raised. ^
44 percent of Americans have switched religious affiliations since childhood, mostly mainline Protestants. 7% who were raised Protestant are now unaffiliated; 15% now belong to a different Protestant faith. ^
51% of Protestants from a different Protestant denomination cite a lack of spiritual fulfillment as a reason for leaving their childhood faith. 85% say they joined their current denominational faith because they enjoy the services and style of worship. Only 15% left say they left because they stopped believing in its teachings. ^
Those who have left Catholicism outnumber those who have joined the Catholic Church by nearly a four-to-one margin. 10.1% have left the Catholic Church after having been raised Catholic, while only 2.6% of adults have become Catholic after having been raised in a different faith.^
4% of Americans raised Catholic are now unaffiliated; 5% are now Protestant. ^
Over 75% of those who left Catholicism attended Mass at least once a week as children, versus 86% having done so who remain Catholics today.^
Regarding reasons for leaving Catholicism, less than 30% of former Catholics agreed that the clergy sexual abuse scandal played a role in their departure. ^
71% of converts from Catholicism to Protestant faith said that their spiritual needs were not being met in Catholicism, with 78% of Evangelical Protestants in particular concurring, versus 43% of those now unaffiliated. ^
50% of all Protestants converts from Catholicism said they stopped believing in Catholicism's teachings overall. Only 23% (20% now evangelical) were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; 16% (12% now evangelical) were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control, 70% said they found a religion the liked more in Protestantism.
55% of evangelical converts from Catholicism cited dissatisfaction with Catholic teachings about the Bible was a reason for leaving Catholicism, with 46% saying the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough.
81% of all Protestant converts from Catholicism said they enjoyed the service and worship of Protestant faith as a reason for joining a Protestant denomination, with 62% of all Protestants and 74% Evangelicals also saying that they felt God's call to do so. ^
42% of those now unaffiliated stated they do not believe in God, or most religious teaching. ^
54% of “millennial generation” Catholics (born in 1982 or later) are Hispanics, while 39% are non-Hispanic whites. On the other hand, 76% of “pre-Vatican II generation” Catholics (born 1943 or earlier) are non-Hispanic whites, while 15% are Hispanics. Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University, September, 2010 . http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/6850/Openers-More-evidence-of-the-browning-of-US-Cat.aspx
68% of all Latinos in the U.S. identify as Catholics. Changing Faiths: Latinos and the Transformation of American Religion http://pewforum.org/Changing-Faiths-Latinos-and-the-Transformation-of-American-Religion.aspx Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion - American Piety in the 21 Century – 9-2006 http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf
Among Catholics under the age of 30, 47% are white, and 45% are Latino. In contrast, among Catholics over the age of 65, 82% are white (Pew Forum 2007, reported in http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf)
Latinos comprised 32 percent of all U.S. Catholics in 2008, versus to 20 percent in 1990. However, Catholic identification has slipped from 66 percent in 1990 to 60 percent in 2008. There has also been a significant rise in the number of Latinos who do not adhere to a religion. The longer a Latino has lived in the United States, the less likely he or she is to be Catholic. Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College, http://theamericano.com/2010/03/18/new-report-on-u-s-latino-religious-identification/
18% of all Latinos say they have either converted from one religion to another or to no religion at all. http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/75.4.pdf
1,000 Mexicans left the Catholic Church every day between 2000 and 2010, a decline that has continued uninterrupted over the past 60 years, from 98.21 of the population to 83.9 percent today. Latin American Herald Tribune, March 10, 2011, based upon census data and study by sociologist and historian Roberto Blancarte of Colegio de Mexico and the National Autonomous University of Mexico
The percentage of of Protestants and Evangelicals rose from 1.28% in 1950 to close to 8% of the total population in 2010, (excluding so-called Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons). 5.2 million say they profess no religion. ^
This decline is seen as extending across the region (Catholics represent between 55% to 73% in Central America, 70% in Brazil, 50% in Cuba and Uruguay).^
Brazil’s National Statistics Institute reported that the number of evangelical Christians in Brazil (the world’s largest Catholic country) has risen from 15% of the population in 2000 to to 22% of the population in 2010, and 4% 40 years ago, while the proportion of Catholic Brazilians fell from 93.% of Brazilians 40 years ago, and 74% of the population in 2000 to to 65% in 2010. http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/06/29/ratio-of-evangelicals-in-brazil-jumps-44-in-10-years/
Almost 20% of all Latino American Catholics have left the Roman Catholicism, with 23 percent of second-generation Latino Americans doing so. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf
54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=75
51% of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. ^
82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. ^
Latino evangelicals are more than 20 percentage points more likely than Catholics to say that abortion should be illegal in most or all circumstances. http://www.nhclc.org/news/latino-religion-us-demographic-shifts-and-trend
The first generation of Latino immigrants is 74 percent Catholic, and 15 percent Protestant. The second generation is 72 percent Catholic, and 20 percent Protestant. The third generation is 62 percent Catholic, and 29 percent Protestant. ^
According to the Census Bureau, the Latino population in the United States grew from 22.4 million in 1990 to 41.3 million in 2004, adding a staggering 18.9 million people in 10 years. Broader estimates, which include Puerto Rican islanders (4 million) and undocumented immigrants (5 million), put the U.S. Latino population at over 50 million. ^
When ask to choose, three-fourths of all Protestant pastors surveyed said [2009] they are pro-life, and 13 percent said they were pro-choice. LifeWay Research; http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-share-views-on-gay-marriage-abortion
In a 2010 LifeWay Research survey 77 percent of American Protestant pastors (57% of mainline versus 87% evangelical) strongly disagree with same-sex marriage, with 6% percent somewhat disagreeing, and 5% being somewhat in agreement and 10 percent strongly agreeing. (5% of evangelical).
Only 3% of evangelical pastors (versus 11% mainline) somewhat agree that there is nothing wrong with homosexual marriage.
11% of evangelical pastors (versus 30% mainline) somewhat agree that homosexual civil unions are acceptable, with 67% of the former and 38% of the latter strongly disagreeing with homosexual civil unions. October 2010 LifeWay Research survey of 1,000 randomly selected Protestant pastors. http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-oppose-homosexual-marriage
A 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. However, nearly four in 10 younger priests in 2002 described themselves as conservative, and were more likely to regard as "always a sin" such acts as premarital sex, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexual relations, etc., and three-fourths said they were more religiously orthodox than their older counterparts. Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_2_39/ai_94129129/pg_2
The survey also found that 80% of Roman Catholic priests referred to themselves as “mostly” heterosexual in orientation, with 67% being exclusively heterosexual, 8% leaning toward heterosexual, 5% completely in the middle, and 6% leaning toward homosexual and 9% saying they are homosexual, for a combined figure of 15% on the homosexual class. Among younger priests (those ordained for 20 years or less) the figure was 23%. ^
One-third of surveyed priests said they “do not waver” from their vow of celibacy, while 47% described celibacy as “an ongoing journey” and 14% said they “do not always succeed in following” it. 2% said celibacy is not relevant to their priesthood and they do not observe it. not celibate. ^
71 percent of priests responded that it always was wrong for a woman to get an abortion, 19 percent that it often was, and 4 percent seldom/never. ^
28 percent judged that is always was sin for married couples to use artificial birth control, 25 percent often, 40 percent never. ^
49 percent affirmed that it was always a sin to engage in homosexual behavior, often, 25 percent; and never, 19 percent. ^
A stunning example of Catholicism, which celebrates the theological equivalence of Herod's vow in obedience to Rome over Scripture!
"And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her. " (Matthew 14:9)
"But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready, looking for a promise from thee." (Acts 23:21)
"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;...Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth." (1 Timothy 4:1-3)
"This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife...One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)" (1 Timothy 3:1,2,4,5)
"Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?" (1 Corinthians 9:5)
For the fact is that the normative state of NT pastors was that of marriage, and fatherhood (as an argument against contraception) is even invoked as a preparatory ability for the pastorate.
And while celibacy certainly has its advantages as Paul describes, and as in 70AD which Paul seems to foresee, the future now will esp. be difficult for families, yet the apostle also states that celibacy is a gift:
"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that." (1 Corinthians 7:7)
Thus to presume all basically who are called to the pastorate have that gift is both unScriptural and presumptuous, and is asking for trouble.
Yet the true NT church began in disobedience to men who sat in the seat of Moses.
And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. (Acts 6:7)
"But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye." (Acts 4:19)
For indeed, under the Roman model for authority and determining Truth, the NT church itself is invalidated!
But if she dies, he must remain single, an ecclesiastical law which is foreign to the NT, but so is the church of Rome.
“but how many went to become Protestant clergy. Most Catholics who left the priesthood still stay Catholic, just laicized. The ones who do go to Protestantism as clergy tend to go to the mainline-liberal ones such as Episcopalians, ECLA Lutherans, and Methodist, etc.”
You may be correct, but I have no statistical evidence to confirm or not...
“...and protestant groups, which are always subject to the vote of assemblies, thus issues like abortion, euthanasia, women clergy, same-sex marriage tend to split those groups.”
That brief snippet is not universally true. Church polity varies greatly according to denomination.
So let's just cut a whole group out because the researcher has jumped to a major conclusion.
Is this "study" worth the paper it is printed on.
Possibly, if you are in the smallest room in the house.
Otherwise take with a number of very large grains of salt.
daniel1212:
We have been down the priest [presbyter] discussion before. Most of the Catholics who go evangelical are “make up your on religion Catholics” and tend to be very poorly catechized Catholics and if truth be told, many are divorced Catholics who remarried and did not like to be told they could not receive Communion in the Catholic Church, so they go to a evangelical church and are told to call the altar [or something to that effect] and they are now once saved always saved protestants and many of those types never really at their core leave Catholic Church as many of them continue to vent over leaving it or attack the faith of their ancestors. I do believe in many instances the happiness they project in their new found evangelical protestant faith is a façade.
And nothing in those statistics is inconsistent with what I stated. I was only referring to Catholic priests and where they go when they leave. Very few go to fundamentalist or evangelical protestant groups.
As for Catholic laity, that is a whole different discussion. It seems as many go unaffiliated as Protestant 14% to 15% and of those that go Protestant 40% go mainline and 60% go evangelical. But in total, of the 29% of Catholics who left [lets say 29% of 1,000 to use a number] would give you 290 Catholics, 140 of those are basically atheist or agnostic [unaffiliated] 60 are mainline-liberal protestants, so that is 200 and the other 90 or evangelical, so about 69% of former Catholics who leave go to more liberal directions, atheist-unaffiliated or mainline-liberal Protestantism. Catholic Clergy almost exclusively go that direction, i.e. towards liberal Protestantism [Episcopalians, ELCA Lutherans, Methodist].
In summary, those statistics don’t surprise me at all an confirm what would be my ex ante predictions.
aMorePerfectUnion:
Really, show me one Protestant Group which does not have assemblies which a theological issue can go one way or the other via a vote of said assembly. If the votes become to controversial, eventually some of those churches that use to belong to that assembly will split away. In my home town, the First Presbyterian Church [a very large one] left the PCUSA a few years ago because of what they saw going on at the National assembly meetings. My guess is more will leave the PSUSA over this recent vote.
The United Methodist are heading down the same direction. My prediction, a major split is coming in that group as well in the next few years.
Even the Southern Baptist have some issues brewing over a Pastor in California stating he will no longer preach on homosexuality as a sin [I think that is the case, but I may be off on the specifics]. I think his son now is stating he is a openly practicing homosexual and now the pastor is changing his tune. Now, if the son is struggling with orientation, then he should be welcomed as any other person struggling with sin, but I think the Pastor is now stating he is changing his understanding on the entire issue. So who knows where even the Southern Baptist are heading in the next few years if more and more of their churches adopt this one in California’s theology.
Well... no.
Where you find the splits tend to be in Churches who tend to follow more closely the Roman Catholic tradition of the leaders telling the assembly what they are going to believe. In both cases the clergy tends to be much more liberal about everything then the laity. Which is why you find "democratic" (assembly vote) and "republican" (pastoral vote but churches have elected their pastor) Churches tend to be much more conservative. Where you find church splits in those cases is generally in the realm of personality and fellowship rather then doctrine. Which means that you can have Churches that believe basically the same doctrine with minor variations (women wear a covering in church vs they don't or men may play on non church sports team vs they may not).
But in these Churches you usually (there are exceptions) find very conservative beliefs.
Can you tell me who these churches are that follow the process that you laid out. The ELCA, Episcopalians, Methodist, Presbyterians and even most Baptist don’t follow those procedures.
Not quite: they actually wish conservative Catholics (though a minority) were all celibate, and are alarmed that conservatives overall have more kids then they do (which they replace with pets, with 4 times as many being in the USA than kids), but what they basically hate is real marriage.
Yet the birth rate is continually dropping in the United States of Contraception, and Catholic states are overall the lowest .
Studies for the United States now show that Catholic families have, if anything, fewer rather than a greater, number of children compared to Protestant families who have similar incomes and education. A similar reversal has occurred in international comparisons. Catholic countries like Spain, Italy, and Poland now have total fertility rates-the number of children born to the average woman over her lifetime- of only 1.4, 1.4, and 1.2, respectively, far below these rates in the predominantly Protestant countries of Northern Europe. Even “Irish” family patterns no longer hold in Ireland, where the typical woman has a little less than two children over her lifetime instead of four or five, even though she is not marrying any later than the typical Irish woman did in the past. - http://www.becker-posner-blog.com/2010/11/the-behavior-of-catholics-and-contraceptive-use-becker.html
Cath. birth rates are much higher in Africa and S America, but Islam overall has the highest.
Monsignor Vittorio Formenti, who compiles the Vatican's yearbook, said in an interview with the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano that "For the first time in history, we are no longer at the top: Muslims have overtaken us". He said that Catholics accounted for 17.4 percent of the world population—a stable percentage—while Muslims were at 19.2 percent. "It is true that while Muslim families, as is well known, continue to make a lot of children, Christian ones on the contrary tend to have fewer and fewer," the monsignor said. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population_growth
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