Posted on 05/28/2014 5:50:04 AM PDT by WVKayaker
Can Roman Catholics be saved? Yes they can but not if they adhere to Roman Catholic theology. Like anyone else, salvation is found only through faith in Christ alone. ...
(Excerpt) Read more at carm.org ...
LOL, sorry about the delay. My computer freakied out.
And baptisms of babies are valid too. There are god parents to speak for the baby.
**In James, the half brother of Jesus**
No, they were cousins.
Not to weigh in on the original question, but reading history leads me to the opinion that there were some Popes that just ain’t gonna make it.
**Can you just imagine a religion that teaches its adherents that they must be righteous people?**
Exactly! Every religion in the world teaches that!
The question is this: Is it your own works that make you rightous or the work of someone else?
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*1. "Rome believes..." I didn't know that Rome was a person. Tony Rome??
The Catholic Church has some dogmas but I have never been told that it's dogma that good works and faith are a guarantee to heaven.
*2. I also have never heard that we must "appropriate" grace via the Mass and the "etc." which, somehow, is supposed to make us "righteous" enough to please God and be worthy of heaven.
Are you SURE that you were a Catholic?
*Some of that is just fine but there is no FORMULA for getting to heaven.
*There is no GUARANTEE of anything in this life except that we ARE going to die and meet our Maker.
*No Catholic that I know of was told that s/he had to "appropriate" grace. How would a seven-year-old know what that is?
*These is NO "quid pro quo" when it comes to the salvation of our eternal souls.
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If THOSE dicta were preached to you regarding salvation, then I sure don't blame you for leaving the faith.
BTW: What is the difference between a Baptist and a "Reformed Baptist"???
God bless you and your family for all the trauma you had to endure because of your "Catholicism." The good Lord obviously has a reason for that. Do you have any idea why He had you go through that? There HAS to be a ver good reason.
Yeah, I know they are, I just want to make this guy answer some uncomfortable questions, which he is apparently unable or unwilling to do.
THEY. WERE. BROTHERS.
Read the Bible without a Roman Catholic prism distorting everything and it will be clearly evident.
I’m really sorry somebody misinformed you. I’m a Catholic and I don’t know of any reason why you would not be considered a Christian. Of course you are a Christian. People are saved through Jesus, the Word. We know that people are saved through the Church, capital C, the bride of Christ. However, we do not rule out that people could find their way to God without being Catholic, we just don’t presume to outline a way for God to do that. It would be up to his mercy, and less likely, given the number of directions in which people could stray. (Like trying to learn to cook without someone helping you or providing a cookbook). But if you think of some of the righteous men of the Bible (Jesus’ father Joseph, for example), you have to figure God took them to Himself somehow.
Saying “yes” to Jesus, is the work that saves you. The other work we do is because Jesus told us to— feed the hungry, clothe the naked, etc. Not for personal gain, but because He asked us to love God and love our neighbor. The good we do flows from us to make the Kingdom come on earth, as it is in Heaven. It’s God’s show. We participate, because it pleased Him to let us help. Like when you let a little kid help you with something you could have done faster by yourself, because it’s good for the child and it’s a heartwarming part of life.
I think the whole faith/works thing is a distracting argument that Satan really enjoys watching. Let’s drop the inter-faith antagonism and ruin his fun.
**Rome believes in “faith” and Works salvation.
Catholics must appropriate “grace” via the Mass, etc.. that enables them to perform the works necessary for salvation where the soul is righteous enough to please God and worthy of Heaven.**
This is not a dogma — it is in the Bible!!!!!!
Why would you ever want to disobey the Holy Spirit inspired words of the Bible? (Unless Luther too it out.)
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/my_top_ten.html
James 2:24
“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”
In addition to their belief in the Bible alone (”sola Scriptura”), most Protestants believe that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior in order to be justified by God (justification is the process by which man, moved by grace, turns toward God and away from sin, and accepts God’s forgiveness and righteousness). Thus, most Protestants believe that one is justified and saved by His faith in Christ alone (called “sola Fide” or Faith alone). But if this is true, then why does James say that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone?
James says this because we are justified, and ultimately saved, through both our faith and works, and not just faith alone. In fact, the only place in the Bible where the phrase “faith alone” appears is in James 2:24 where it says we are justified by works and NOT by faith alone. So the Bible never teaches anywhere that we are justified, saved, or anything else, by faith alone. While on its face the Catholic position seems obvious, the theology of faith and works in the matter of salvation is actually quite complicated, and has been one of the main sources of division between Catholicism and Protestantism. Hence, a couple of points should be made to address the controversy and clarify Catholic teaching.
First, Catholics ultimately believe that we are saved, not by faith or works, but by Jesus Christ and Him alone. Jesus Christ’s death and Resurrection is the sole source of our justification (being in a right relationship with God) and salvation (sharing in God’s divine life). But as a result of Christ’s death and resurrection, we are now able to receive God’s grace. Grace is God’s own divine life which He infuses into our souls. It is what Adam initially lost for us, and Christ won back for us. This grace initially causes us to seek God and to believe in Him (the “faith” part). Non-Catholics generally stop here.
But God desires us to respond to His grace by putting our faith into action (the “works” part). This is why Jesus always taught about our salvation in the context of what we actually did during our earthly lives, and not how much faith we had (”whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did to Me.” Matthew 25:40,45). When Jesus teaches about His second coming where He will separate the sheep from the goats, He bases salvation and damnation upon what we actually did (”works”), whether righteous or evil. Matthew 25:31-46. In James 2:14-26, James is similarly instructing us to put our faith into action by performing good works, and not just giving an intellectual assent of faith. James says such “faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:17,26.
So we must do more than accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Even the demons believe Jesus is Savior, and yet “they tremble.” James 2:19. We must also do good works. Faith is the beginning of a process that leads us toward justification, but faith alone never obtains the grace of justification. Faith and works acting together achieve our justification. Saint Paul says it best when he writes that we need “faith working in love.” Galatians 5:6. We are not justified and saved by faith alone.
Secondly, it is important to distinguish between the “works” James taught about in James 2:24 and the “works of the law” Saint Paul taught about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. Protestants generally confuse James’ “good works” from Paul’s “works of the law” when they attempt to prove that “works” are irrelevant to justification and salvation. The “works of the law” Paul taught about in Ephesians 2:8-9 and elsewhere referred to the Mosaic law and their legal system that made God obligated to reward them for their works. They would thus “boast” about their works by attributing their works to themselves. Cf. Rom. 4:2; Eph. 2:9. Saint Paul taught that, with the coming of Christ, the Mosaic (moral, legal, and ceremonial) law which made God a debtor to us no longer justified a person. Instead, Paul taught that we are now justified and saved by grace (not legal obligation) through faith (not works of law). Eph. 2:5,8. Hence, we no longer “boast” by attributing our works to ourselves. We attribute them to God who gives everything to us freely by His grace.
Therefore, we are no longer required to fulfill the “works of law,” but to fulfill the “law of Christ” Gal. 6:2. This is why Paul writes that the “doers of the law (of Christ)” will be justified. Rom. 2:13. Of course, the “works of the law” Paul wrote about in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10 and Eph. 2:8-9 have nothing to do with the “good works” James is teaching in James 2:24 or the “law” Paul is teaching about in Rom. 2:13 (because they are part of the same Word of God which can never contradict itself).
In summary, based on the Scriptures, the Church has taught for 2,000 years that we are justified and saved by the grace and mercy of Christ through both faith and works, and not faith alone. We are no longer in a legal system of debt where God owes us (creditor/debtor). We are now in a system of grace where God rewards our works when done with faith in Christ (Father/child). This also means that we must continue to exercise our faith and works to the end of our lives in order to be saved. This is why Jesus told us to “endure to the end” to be saved. Matthew 10:22; 24:13; Mark 13:13. This is also why Saint Paul warned us that we could even lose our salvation if we did not persevere. cf. Romans 11:20-23; 1 Corinthians 9:27. This Catholic belief contradicts the novel Protestant notion of “once saved, always saved.”
“Not every one that saith to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of My Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Matthew 7:21
“But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. Who will render to every man according to his works. To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation.” Romans 2:5-8
“For we must all be manifested before the judgement seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.” 2 Corinthians 5:10
“Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.” 2 Corinthians 11:15
“You are made void of Christ, you who are justified in the law: you are fallen from grace. For we in spirit, by faith, wait for the hope of justice. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision: but faith that worketh by charity.” Galatians 5:4-6
“For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works, that no man may glory. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:8-10
“Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but much more now in my absence,) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. For it is God who worketh in you, both to will and to accomplish, according to His good will.” Philippians 2:12-13
“Knowing that you shall receive of the Lord the reward of inheritance. Serve ye the Lord Christ. For he that doth wrong, shall receive for that which he hath done wrongfully: and there is no respect of persons with God.” Colossians 3:24-25
“What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?” James 2:14
“So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.” James 2:17
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:20
“Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?” James 2:24
“For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.” James 2:26
“And if you invoke as Father Him who, without respect of persons, judgeth according to every one’s work: converse in fear during the time of your sojourning here.” 1 Peter 1:17
“And I saw the dead, great and small, standing in the presence of the throne, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged by those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works.” Apocalypse 20:12-13
“And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.” 2 Peter 3:15-16
“Regarding the debate about faith and works: It’s like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most important.”
~C.S. Lewis
Look again, please.
OOps
(Unless Luther took it out.)
Yet same people show up with the same crap thread after thread. I swear.
You mean the stuff Trent added?
Right, the RCC does not guarantee the formula, but at least according to the poster "Salvation" faith and works must be done (see his exegesis of James)
2. Catholics must appropriate “grace” via the Mass, etc.. that enables them to perform the works necessary for salvation where the soul is righteous enough to please God and worthy of Heaven.
While my precise wording is not in the catechism, I think my meaning is pretty close to what the RCC teaches.
BTW: What is the difference between a Baptist and a "Reformed Baptist"???
Reformed Baptists are smarter! :)
Reformed as in Calvinistic. Kind of like a Catholic Thomists position.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You have a profound misconception here ... Peter and Barnabas were led astray ... I suggest you read Galatians.
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