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The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic
Today | Douglaskc

Posted on 01/02/2014 10:13:07 AM PST by DouglasKC

The Ravenous Wolves of FreeRepublic
How do we deal with the insults and pain of those whom Christ called "ravenous wolves"?

Many aren't aware of it but the phrase "A wolf in sheep’s clothing" has biblical origins.

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.

The word translated "false prophet" here is not referring to a Godly person who has a prophecy that fails. Instead it's referring to a person who pretends to be a Christian but in reality is not. They are compared to "ravenous wolves" among the flock.

These ravenous wolves exist in life. And they exist here in the religious forum of FreeRepublic. They can be a challenge to our faith and to our Christianity. In this article we're going to examine how to identify these wolves in sheep clothing and how to use our shepard, Jesus Christ, to combat them.

How can we know them? Jesus Christ gave us the answer in the very next verse:

Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?

In other words, says Christ, real Christians have a certain, identifiable "fruit". The wolves among the sheep will NOT have these fruits. You can't get grapes from thorns.

Jesus then goes on to make another comparison:

Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

The word translated "bad" means harmful, or evil. Something that is intended to hurt or destroy. So the hallmark of bad fruit is something that is harmful or destructive to people. "Good" on the other hand is something that is beautiful, beneficial, or worthy.

Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

So the mark of a wolf in sheep’s clothing is whether they bear good fruit, or any. In John 15, Christ gives more detail on this fruit.

John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

This fruit is something that Christians have. If someone doesn't have Christ they then won't have this fruit.

The Fruit of the Spirit

But what is this fruit? How can we know whether the fruit is good or bad unless we know what it looks like? Luckily the apostle Paul gives us a good idea of what this fruit looks like in the book of Galatians.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

This fruit, these characteristics, are the natural result of living and abiding in Christ, in having his spirit.
Paul sums them up beautifully in 1 Corinthians:

1Co 13:4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
1Co 13:5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
1Co 13:6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
1Co 13:7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

These characteristics apply across all organizations. Organizations do not have a lock on the spirit of God. If someone exhibits these characteristics on a consistent basis they do have the spirit of God and they are a Christian.

There are many people in various organizations on FreeRepublic that exhibit these traits. Many Catholic, LDS, Protestant and Messianic and other members of FreeRepublic exhibit these traits and thus do have the spirit of God and are Christians.

However there are a very few that rarely if ever exhibit these traits. In fact they exhibit something else....the works of the flesh:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These behaviors are not just physical but are also spiritual. They are destructive and harmful to themselves and those they come into contact with.

That should not be surprising because the emanate not jut from the flesh, but are demonic in origin. James highlights these works.

James 3:13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom.

Note that good behavior and meekness are hallmarks of of wisdom, having the spirit of the Lord. James contrasts that with other behavior.

James 3:14 But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.
James 3:15 This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic.
James 3:16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there.

And back to the righteous:

James 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.
James 3:18 Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.

Animal Behavior

So these are the fruits. The ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic generally act like their namesakes....wolf like.

You've seen them. They'll post derogatory things about others and their faith. The purpose isn't to defend their own faith which often is hidden or not evident. . The purpose is to satisfy their hunger for division, acrimony and blood.

Like animals they seem not to know how to behave civility. They can't address others with whom they disagree without snarling, spitting and insulting. They bare their teeth and pretend that their animal nature is noble and Godly.

They justify their animal nature by pretending that they're just like us. They show us their sheepskin but they can't hide their true nature.

Like a wolf pack there is hierarchy and anyone outside of the pack is instantly set upon if one so much as questions the rules of the pack.

Like a wolf pack they howl, or ping others, when they think they've identified a victim. Peter describes their behavior perfectly:

1Pe_5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

That's how the ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic operate. They bait. They hunt down. They attack. They devour and all the while pretend that they're one of us.

Christ is the Shepherd

How do we deal with these wolves? These impostors? These fake Christians? After all they seem to have the advantage of aggressiveness, viciousness and have no qualms about personally attacking others.

The answer is that "we" can't do anything. We're sheep. We're weak. We're helpless. We don't have the teeth or claws they do.

But we have something else. Something they don't have. We have Christ as our shepherd protecting and guiding us. They can't harm us if we depend on Christ and stay in the flock.

Really all the wolves can do is sit just outside the flock, snarling, biting and snapping at us. And maybe that's why they're bitter and angry. They realize that they're not real sheep. They envy that the sheep have real faith in their shepherd. They wonder why Christ doesn't accept their disguise as being the real thing.

Now certainly we're not perfect sheep. I'm not. Sometimes we take their bait. It's not easy to see other sheep begin attacked or to be attacked. Sometimes we want to snarl back with our little sheep teeth. But it rarely works because to do that we have to leave the side of Christ.

The best strategy is to let Christ take care of them. They're not fooling very many and they're certainly not fooling Jesus. They're interested only in satisfying their hunger. They don't want to debate. When they pretend they are they're really only dangling bait to draw others out where they will be vulnerable and away from the shepherd.

About such Christ said:

Mat 7:6 "Don't give what is holy to dogs or throw your pearls to pigs. Otherwise, they will trample them and then tear you to pieces.

These ravenous wolves of FreeRepublic have figured out how to manipulate and find the "loopholes" in the forum rules so their rude, crude and unChristian behavior is tolerated. But they're not fooling anyone. A leopard can't hide his spots.

Ultimately they are to be pitied. Clearly they've had experiences in their lives where they've been hurt deeply. They've been betrayed. They've been picked on. They've been abused. So not knowing Christ they do the same to others. They behave like animals as all Christians did before becoming Christians.

But they don't have to. One day God will open up their eyes. He will show them that they are only pretending to be sheep and they will realize their animal nature and be ashamed. And then Christ will show them HOW to become sheep.

Our prayers should be that they will change. That they will bear fruit worthy of repentance. And we should examine ourselves and our attitudes toward them and others. To pray that God gives us the wisdom, kindness and gentleness to deal with those who would use us and spitefully accuse us.

Mat 5:43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor, and hate your enemy.'
Mat 5:44 But I tell you this: Love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
Mat 5:45 In this way you show that you are children of your Father in heaven.

This should be our goal. To let the light of our Father shine through and to glorify him. A tall order to be sure but the only way to stand up to the wolves.


TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: antichristian; armstrong; christian; cult; freepers; ibtz; inman; jesus; mormon; ravenouswolves; sectarianturmoil; wolves
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To: Kevmo; DouglasKC; All

Don’t take Douglas too seriously when he implies that there is something “false” in what has been explained of UCG theology. What he really means is that he does not like the way it was told you, and he’d rather you go through the UCG setup where they slowly talk you into the heresy, one step at a cultic time. From the UCG website:

“...the one God is a family, presently consisting of God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ. And God is in the process of adding to the divine family multitudes of others - eventually all human beings who are willing and who faithfully choose to follow God’s way...the Father and Jesus Christ are both God...The real message in these pronouncements is that there is no other God apart from the true God’that is, outside the God family now consisting of two divine Beings, the Father and the Son. In short, the God family alone is God...the true God means the one God family to which others will yet be added.”

From http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/do-some-verses-deny-divine-family/

You’ll notice, if you read the entire article, that they use a lot of Christian terminology, and even sound like they’re defending monotheism. But, when they mention “Trinitarians,” they tip their hand even for the most casual of observers:

“Trinitarians would argue that this is because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one triune being. But the true explanation is that the one God is the one God ‘family.’” (From same link as above)

The UCG on the Holy Spirit:

“...the Holy Spirit is the very nature, presence and expression of God’s power actively working in His servants...the very essence and life force through which the Father begets human beings as His spiritual children...The Holy Spirit is spoken of in many ways that demonstrate that it is not a divine person.”

http://www.ucg.org/booklet/god-trinity/holy-spirit-person/

You can find a summary of UCG’s beliefs, as well as footnotes STRAIGHT from the UCG’s website, from the helpful folks at CARM:

http://carm.org/ucog

So when Douglas claims you’re going to find something ‘different’ from what I have provided on the UCG website, he’s bluffing, hoping you don’t actually check, and confuse him for a Trinitarian Christian.


301 posted on 01/02/2014 7:24:16 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Revolting cat!
A gentleman does not discuss religion.

A gentleman leaves theology to theologians.

A gentleman does not publish endless excerpts from his parochial religious texts, whatever they might be, in support of his dubious claims.

Such a person should stay away from the Religion Forum.
302 posted on 01/02/2014 7:25:25 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Revolting cat!; Elsie

“Let’s try this:

A gentleman does not discuss religion.”


Judging from all the many encounters we’ve had debating RELIGION, I guess neither of us qualify, eh?


303 posted on 01/02/2014 7:25:27 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: All; y'all; Ping; et al

Hello y’all:

Just because it’s Douglas’s thread doesn’t mean you are barred from posting your opinion on whether this long-term “adversary-who-lives-under-a-bridge” is trying to derail the discussion with an off topic item.


304 posted on 01/02/2014 7:25:28 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: melsec

That is a common and often misunderstood section of the Gospel.

See http://midwestapologetics.org/blog/?p=634

Christian, I’m sure that many believers would agree with you that wherever Christians are gathered, there Christ will be too, and that we don’t need a building, pews, etc. However, that is not at all what this verse is teaching. The context just does not support such an interpretation. So I would urge you not to misuse this passage just because that’s what you want it to mean. We need to let Scripture transform our thinking, rather than allow our thinking to transform Scripture.


305 posted on 01/02/2014 7:25:34 PM PST by narses (... unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.)
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To: Elsie

Wow! Someone must’ve dog eared and underlined all the good passages. LOL


306 posted on 01/02/2014 7:26:19 PM PST by Jim Robinson (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God!!)
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To: Elsie

And?


307 posted on 01/02/2014 7:26:42 PM PST by count-your-change (you don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough)
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To: Vigilanteman
...who wished to define the Gospel under their own narrow and egotistical terms.

Vman; were you ever a missionary??


The Rules

  1. Learn and obey all missionary rules.
  2. Keep your thoughts, words, and actions in harmony with the gospel message.
  3. Read only books, magazines, and other material authorized by the Church.
  4. Don't debate or argue.
  5. Center your mind on your mission.
  6. Dress conservatively. Elders: white shirts, conservative ties, and business suits. Sisters: conservative colors and skirts that cover your knees. No floor-length skirts or dresses.
  7. Cut your hair regularly.
  8. Keep your hair clean and neatly combed at all times in the approved style.
  9. Be neat and clean.
  10. Bathe frequently.
  11. Use deodorant.
  12. Polish your shoes.
  13. Iron your shirt and business suit.
  14. Arise at 6:30 A.M.
  15. Study for 2 hours every morning.
  16. Proselytize for 10 hours between 9:30 A.M. and 9:30 P.M.
  17. Turn off your lights at 10:30 P.M.
  18. Exercise regularly.
  19. Write in your journal regularly.
  20. Follow the "Missionary Gospel Study Program" (31157) for your personal study.
  21. Regularly study the Missionary Guide and the Discussions.
  22. Attend Sunday priesthood or Relief Society meetings, Sunday School, and sacrament meeting.
  23. Attend the general session of Stake Conference.
  24. Attend general conference broadcasts if available.
  25. Avoid all other church meetings unless you have a special assignment or are brining an investigator.
  26. Proselytize as much as possible on weekends and holidays because this is when you'll find people home.
  27. End your preparation day at 6:00 P.M. and proselytize from 6:00 P.M. to 9:30 P.M.
  28. Wear your missionary uniform in public on preparation day while not engaged in recreational activities.
  29. Arise at 6:30 on preparation day and study for 2 hours from the approved books.
  30. Take care of your physical preparation for the week on preparation day: wash your clothes, clean your apartment, wash your car, get your haircut, and shop for groceries.
  31. Write to your parents every week on preparation day.
  32. Write less frequently to your siblings, friends, and acquaintances.
  33. Don't communicate with any friends or acquaintances that are within or close to your mission boundaries, except as a part of official mission business.
  34. Plan safe, wholesome, and uplifting activities for preparation day.
  35. Stay with your companion during all activities.
  36. Do not go on road trips.
  37. Do not leave your assigned area without permission
  38. Do not watch television.
  39. Do not view unauthorized videocassettes.
  40. Do not listen to the radio.
  41. Do not listen to unauthorized audiocassettes or CD’s.
  42. Do not participate in musical groups.
  43. Do not participate in athletic teams.
  44. Do not sponsor athletic teams.
  45. Do not engage in contact sports.
  46. Do not engage in water sports.
  47. Do not engage in winter sports.
  48. Do not engage in motorcycling.
  49. Do not engage in horseback riding.
  50. Do not engage in mountain climbing.
  51. Do not embark on a private boat.
  52. Do not embark in a private airplane.
  53. Do not handle firearms.
  54. Do not handle explosives.
  55. Do not swim.
  56. Do not play full court basketball.
  57. Do not play basketball in leagues.
  58. Do not play basketball in tournaments.
  59. You may play half-court basketball.
  60. Never be alone.
  61. Seek advice from your mission president if your companion is "having difficulties".
  62. Be loyal to your companion.
  63. Ask your mission president for help if your companion doesn’t obey the rules.
  64. Pray with your companion every day.
  65. Study with your companion every day.
  66. Plan your work with your companion every day.
  67. Take time at least once a week for companionship inventory.
  68. Seek to be one in spirit and purpose and help each other succeed.
  69. Always address your companion as Elder or Sister.
  70. Sleep in the same bedroom as your companion.
  71. Do not sleep in the same bed as your companion.
  72. Do not arise before your companion.
  73. Do not retire after your companion. (apparently, being together is more important than getting the correct amount of sleep that your unique body requires.)
  74. Frequently study with your companion the Missionary Guide section on companions.
  75. Never be alone with anyone of the opposite sex.
  76. Never associate inappropriately with anyone of the opposite sex (conversely, they don't mention whether or not it is against the rules to associate inappropriately with anyone of the same sex).
  77. Do not flirt.
  78. Do not date.
  79. Do not communicate via phone or letter with anyone of the opposite sex living within or near mission boundaries.
  80. Do not visit a single or divorced person of the opposite sex unless accompanied by a couple or another adult member of your sex.
  81. Try to teach single investigators in a member’s home or have missionaries of the same sex teach them.
  82. Always follow the above rules, even if the situation seems harmless.
  83. Use the commitment pattern to get referrals from members.
  84. Keep your dinner visits with member briefs and during the customary dinner hour in the area.
  85. Remember to say thank you to those who feed you.
  86. Visit members and nonmembers only at appropriate times.
  87. Do not counsel or give medical treatment.
  88. Do not stay in the homes of people when they are on vacation.
  89. Only write letters to family members and friends at home.
  90. Do not telephone parents
  91. Do not telephone relatives.
  92. Do not telephone friends.
  93. Do not telephone girlfriends.
  94. Contact your mission president in case of an emergency.
  95. Take problems and questions to your mission president.
  96. Do not write to the President of the Church or to other General Authorities. Letters from missionaries to General Authorities are referred back to the mission president
  97. Respect the customs, traditions, and property of the people who you are trying to convert.
  98. Obey all mission rules.
  99. Obey the laws of the land.
  100. Do not get involved in politics.
  101. Do not get involved in commercial activities.
  102. Do not give any information about the area.
  103. Respect the customs and cultures of those who you are trying to convert to your own customs and culture.
  104. Respect the beliefs, practices, and sites of other religions.
  105. Do not say or write anything bad about the political and cultural circumstances where you serve.
  106. Do not become involved in adoption proceedings.
  107. Do not suggest or encourage emigration. (This rule is a bit ironic, given the now-defunct doctrine of gathering the believers to Zion)
  108. Be courteous.
  109. Provide community service.
  110. Do not provide community service that isn’t approved by your mission president.
  111. Do not provide more than 4 hours a week of community service.
  112. Do not provide community service during the evening, weekend or holidays—those are peek proselytizing times.
  113. Your mission president must approve your housing.
  114. Keep your housing unit clean.
  115. Do not live with single or divorced people of the opposite sex.
  116. Do not live where the spouse is frequently absent.
  117. Your living unit must have a private bath and entrance.
  118. You may occasionally fast for a special reason, but generally the monthly fast is sufficient.
  119. Do not fast longer than 24 hours at a time.
  120. Do not ask friends, relatives, and members to join in special fasts for investigators.
  121. Maintain your health.
  122. Eat a healthy diet.
  123. Sleep from 10:30 to 6:30.
  124. Follow the approved exercise program.
  125. Keep your body, clothes, dishes, linens, towels and housing unit clean.
  126. Dispose of your garbage properly and promptly.
  127. Follow the safety rules for all of your stuff.
  128. Seek medical care if you are in an accident or become sick.
  129. Be immunized.
  130. Spend your money only on things relating to your mission.
  131. Budget your money carefully.
  132. Keep a record of what you spend.
  133. Do not spend more than your companion.
  134. Do not loan money.
  135. Do not borrow money.
  136. Keep a reserve fund of $50 to $100 at all times for transfers.
  137. Pay your bills before leaving an area.
  138. Pay cash for all resale literature and supplies ordered from the mission office.
  139. Do not waste money on souvenirs.
  140. Do not waste money on unnecessary items.
  141. Be a frugal photographer.
  142. Do not accumulate excess baggage.
  143. Obey custom laws and regulations.
  144. Pay fast offerings each fast Sunday to the bishop or branch president where you serve.
  145. Pay tithing on outside sources of income (i.e. interest) to your home bishop or branch president.
  146. Evaluate your funds a few months before the end of your mission. If you have more than you need, ask that less be sent so that you can return home without excess money.
  147. Do not drive without a license.
  148. Drive only Church-owned vehicles.
  149. Do not drive members’ cars.
  150. Do not drive nonmembers’ cars.
  151. Do not give rides to members or investigators in Church-owned cars.
  152. Use cars only on approved mission business.
  153. Use cars only within the assigned geographical area.
  154. Be conscious of safety at all times.
  155. Drive defensively.
  156. Wear your seat belt.
  157. Pray for the Lord’s protection while driving.
  158. If your companion is driving, assist him or her.
  159. Do not tamper with the vehicle’s odometer.
  160. Know bicycle safety rules.
  161. Use extreme caution on your bicycle.
  162. Do not ride your bicycle after dark.
  163. Do not ride your bicycle in heavy traffic.
  164. Do not ride your bicycle in adverse weather conditions.
  165. Go directly to your new area when transferred.
  166. Find your new companion without delay when transferred.
  167. Have a maximum of two suitcases and a briefcase.

308 posted on 01/02/2014 7:27:30 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie
P-Nut!
309 posted on 01/02/2014 7:27:35 PM PST by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

So when Douglas claims you’re going to find something ‘different’ from what I have provided on the UCG website, he’s bluffing, hoping you don’t actually check, and confuse him for a Trinitarian Christian.
***Thanks for the heads up. It would appear to be the same damnable anti-trinitarian heresy in action.


310 posted on 01/02/2014 7:28:34 PM PST by Kevmo ("A person's a person, no matter how small" ~Horton Hears a Who)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

I’ve just been told to stay away from Religious Forums. Fine.

But in answer to your post, I can honestly say that I’ve always thought that I discuss not religion per se but the issue of debating religion. There is a difference.


311 posted on 01/02/2014 7:29:03 PM PST by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Religion Moderator

LOL!


312 posted on 01/02/2014 7:29:09 PM PST by Gamecock (Celebrating 20,000 posts of dubious quality.)
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To: narses

Aren’t you supposed to post your cereal first?


313 posted on 01/02/2014 7:29:12 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: narses

Is it time for my Blood picture?


314 posted on 01/02/2014 7:30:21 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: GeronL
Upset?

It get's them SO riled they ignore their OWN behavior!

315 posted on 01/02/2014 7:31:37 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Kevmo; DouglasKC; Elsie

“Perhaps you can help me out with some quizzical details. Does the UCG deny that Jesus is God? If so, wouldn’t that make DouglasKC a heretic within his own church for acknowledging that Jesus is God?”


To be more accurate, Douglas DOES believe Jesus is a god... It’s just that he believes Jesus is one of two different “God personages,” and that we can become a ‘God personage’ too, right next to him. (Though he relegates the Holy Spirit to being an inanimate object.)

IOW, it’s Mormon’s polytheism, but they claim to escape the polytheistic charge by arguing that the ‘God Family’ is “One God”, and so the noun “God” is really a group noun that encompasses many individual members within it.

They are an adamant, anti-Trinitarian religious cult, with many beliefs borrowed from the LDS, JWs and SDA.

So when Douglas says he is “telling you the truth,” he’s leaving out a whole lot of details that puts him outside of Christianity.


316 posted on 01/02/2014 7:31:49 PM PST by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Vigilanteman
What you profess to believe is magnified more by how you act than the words which you declare.



317 posted on 01/02/2014 7:33:26 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Kevmo
Their particular spin is that God is part of a “God Family,” which we can join.

The MORMONs have this thing called "Forever Family"®.

I wonder why only about 15% of them are worthy enough to join?

318 posted on 01/02/2014 7:35:13 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I see you found the short list.


319 posted on 01/02/2014 7:35:49 PM PST by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds)
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To: narses

AhhhH!!!

The cereal WILL be along shortly!


320 posted on 01/02/2014 7:35:50 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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