Notre Dame to host Catholic-Mormon conference

Notre Dame News ^ | November 27th, 2013 | Michael O. Garvey

[Ripliancum]

An ecumenical group of religious historians and other scholars will convene at the University of Notre Dame’s McKenna Hall on Dec. 5-6 (Thursday-Friday) for a conference titled “Catholics and Mormons: A New Dialogue.”

The conference will explore relationships among Catholics and Mormons as their churches are increasingly allied in common social, political and relief efforts. Its themes will include “The Lay of the Land: Contemporary Mormonism and Catholicism,” “Catholicism and Mormonism in Historical Context,” “Revelation: Scriptures, Traditions, and Authoritative Teachings” and “Theologies of Encounter, Unity, and Diversity.”

[Elsie]

RC universities have long accepted openly gay clubs and activist groups on campus.

MormonISM let's 'em infiltrate even deeper than that!!

---

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/52486958-78/mayne-gay-lds-ward.html.csp

http://mitchmayne.blogspot.com/

[StormPrepper]

"The church didn't assign the apostle Paul to write his letters, either...doesn't make them less than authoritative in ANY way."

Paul's letters were directed to specific people in the Church in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, they were official and authoritative.

"Very lame explanation of what your "apostles" FORMALLY & PUBLICLY communicate on Mormon doctrine!"

No surprise that you would have this opinion. You have proven more times than can be counted to view the truth as "lame".

[StormPrepper]

[boatbums]He replied, “Go tell that fox, ‘I will keep on driving out demons and healing people today and tomorrow, and on the third day I will reach my goal.’

[boatbums]So, rather than Jesus saying he had more things to do to "be perfect..."

Sure it does, if you conveniently change the words... How many new "Bibles" have Evangelicals put out now that change the wording to be more "convenient"?

I noticed that you didn't respond to the other scriptures I posted. Was that a bit too inconvenient?

[boatbums]Jesus, because He was Almighty God incarnate, was ALREADY sinless, he needed NOTHING in order to be made perfect.

Luke 2:52
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus increased in wisdom and increased in favor with God. How does the fact that He had to increase in favor with God figure into your understanding? The problem you're having is one of understanding the time line of events and the nature of God.

When Jesus was born on the earth He descended below all things. He had to do this in order to raise above all things, to be the greatest of all. He started from -0- and worked His way up basically. This what Luke 2 is conveying.

If you put the Book of Mormon with the Bible, you would know why Jesus had to have been born when He was and where He was. Also, why He didn't perform miracles in front of the Romans.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Jesus doesn't say "Be ye perfect even as I", because He was not considered "Perfected". His life was a perfect example to this point, but He hadn't endured till the end and He hadn't finished His work. There is a difference between "perfected" and "perfect".

Once He had completed His work and was resurrected, then He was perfected and is Almighty God, equal with His Father in all things.

[daniel1212]

RC universities have long accepted openly gay clubs and activist groups on campus. I remember other clubs losing funding so the gay alliance group could participate in a NYC gay rally representing the school! That was parent’s hard earned tuition money going to a club the RC parents opposed. That is beyond tolerance, that is acceptance. And that was back in the late 80s.

After examining the official web sites of 244 Catholic universities and colleges in America, the TFP Student Action found that 107 – or 43% have pro-homosexual clubs. TFP Student Action Dec. 6. 2011; studentaction.org/get-involved/online-petitions/pro-homosexual-clubs-at-107-catholic-colleges/print.html

[StormPrepper]

"Except I looked all thru JS - H 1... "

Mark 12:13
13 And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

"How do you know who spoke to Smith"

JSH 1:
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

The devil can appear "as" an angel. But the devil has no glory and you can stand in his presence unaided. Joseph Smith was standing in the presence of God Himself and was transfigured by the Holy Ghost in order withstand God's glory. Joseph describes light and glory which the devil can't create.

"Nor is "Jesus" or "Christ" mentioned..."

"This is My Beloved Son."

I doubt if anyone standing in the presence of God actually has to be introduced.

[StormPrepper]

"OK, ALL creeds are an abomination to the Mormon god?"

"OK, ALL creeds are an abomination to God?"

There fixed it.

"Tell us then, STormie, WHICH of the dozen segments of the Apostles Creed is "abominable" to Him? Which one? (Just give us a # if you don't have time to explain)"

Easy enough. All of them.

Why? Because they are given by man. God gives to man, man does not give to God. God did not compile this list, give it to a prophet who then gave it to the people.

Being doctrinally correct has nothing to do with it.

Honestly, it's with out power...it's weak and pitiful. It doesn't advance our understanding of our relationship to God. It's apostate men trying desperately to hold on to the little knowledge they have.

When the Lord gives something it looks like this:
D&C 1:
1 Hearken, O ye people of my church, saith the voice of him who wells on high, and whose eyes are upon all men; yea, verily I say: Hearken ye people from afar; and ye that are upon the islands of the sea, listen together.

2 For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape; and there is no eye that shall not see, neither ear that shall not hear, neither heart that shall not be penetrated.

3 And the rebellious shall be pierced with much sorrow; for their iniquities shall be spoken upon the housetops, and their secret acts shall be revealed.

4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.

5 And they shall ago forth and none shall stay them, for I the Lord have commanded them.

[Colofornian]

Easy enough. All of them. Why? Because they are given by man. God gives to man, man does not give to God. God did not compile this list, give it to a prophet who then gave it to the people.

I think you'd have a hard time being consistent here...

LOTS of things are given by man TO God...
...prayers...
...testimonies (about Jesus Christ, not the substitute testimony Mormons seek about Joseph Smith...& about the Book of Mormon)
...worship [which, btw, the Mormons' ORIGINAL 1842 11th article of faith endorses...'cause it CLEARLY says: "according to the dictates of our conscience, and allow all men the same privilege let them worship how, where, or what they may."]

Questions, then:

(1) Do the Mormon gods reject EVERY single prayer that doesn't mention the Book of Mormon/Joseph Smith/the Mormon church or anything Mormonesque uttered by non-Mormons?
Are ALL of them an "abomination" to the Mormon gods, too?

(2) How can your article of faith say -- on the one hand that...
...your Mormon gods endorse worshiping them per the conscientious dictates of even non-Mormons & that even non-Mormons are given the exact same "privilege" to "worship how, where, or what they may" as Mormons...?
...Yet you say that attempted things "given by man" (to God) are rejected outright as an 'abomination' by the Mormon gods all because it doesn't fit your "God gives to man" formula...
...which, btw, you can't even find a BoM/PoGP/D&C verse or Mormon leader to quote who's exported such a teaching as authoritative...

Is this StormPrepper 3:16...or can you actually say you got this teaching from a peculiar Mormonesque "scripture" or Mormon leader?

Where is your consistency here?

You are out of alignment even within your faith's "articles of faith"

And, as for the rest of you Mormons reading this: Are you just going to sit idly by while this fellow Mormon of yours shreds to pieces the 11th article of faith you say you adhere to???

Have you no public backbone?

What? You can't even register a mild "well, this is my interpretation of the matter & it may differ somewhat from Stormprepper?"

The "how" and "what" worship clause of the 11th article of faith of Mormons is wide-open with no caveats or qualifications. Yet StormPrepper the Mormon claims that because it's under the umbrella of something given by man to God, it's rejected by Him/them as an "abomination."

More religious hypocrisy at play here!

[Colofornian]

Paul's letters were directed to specific people in the Church in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, they were official and authoritative.

The Apostles creed was directed to specific people in the church of Jesus Christ of former-day Saints in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, they were official and authoritative -- given by the authorized leaders within the church of Jesus Christ of former-day Saints.

And, at least in the Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie's mind, the book Mormon Doctrine he wrote was directed to specific Mormon people in the church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, at least from a Mormon point of view, it was a FORMAL, OFFICIAL rendering -- approved in its revised version by Spencer W. Kimball, David O. McKay, & Marion G. Romney ... as testified to by Deseret Book publishers...owned by the Mormon church ... in its 2003 published book The Bruce R. McConkie Story: Reflections of a Son, a biography written by his son, Joseph Fielding McConkie...who was a prof @ BYU

See post #75...which, I see, btw, you've ignored.

You & other Mormons may be able to dismiss the original 1958 version of MD as lacking overarching sanction, but that's not so of the 1966 version. And the Mormon church was still republishing Mormon Doctrine as of 1978...and still citing the book for decades to come in teaching adults, teens in the church.

If it was some nasty opinions from which the church leaders wished to steer its grassroots away from, then endorsing the book would have just shown lack of discernment issues at the highest levels of the hierarchy. So your actual dismissal of the book indicts all these Salt Lake City gatekeepers as wholly lacking of discernment.

Bottom line: You still haven't dismissed the response. You attempted, but was an incomplete pass.

[Colofornian]

ALL: StormPrepper's assessment of The Apostles Creed:

Honestly, it's with out power...it's weak and pitiful. It doesn't advance our understanding of our relationship to God. It's apostate men trying desperately to hold on to the little knowledge they have.

Hmmm...

gotta wonder, then, of the Mormon gods' opinions of the prayers the apostle Paul uttered about his "thorn in the flesh":

5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities. 6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in WEAKNESS. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am WEAK, then am I strong. (2 Corinthians 12:5-10)

May I say bluntly StormPrepper that I think you & many Mormons have wholly misunderstood the Gospel itself?

* Jesus said He didn't come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
* The apostle Paul elsewhere (Romans) said that while we were yet (WEAK pitiful) sinners, Christ died for us.

Paul gloried in his weaknesses...in his infirmities...in reproaches...in distresses...in persecutions...

Already in his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul told them: "And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling." (1 Cor. 2:3)

He didn't come as this as this strong perfect leader!

Do you not know the Christmas story enough that the Son of God came & immediately dirtied a diaper -- born in an animal manger in the cold of the night?

And it didn't stop there...

The apostle Paul went on to tell the Corinthians:

"For though he was crucified through WEAKNESS, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are WEAK in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you." (2 Cor. 13:4)

(Note: The "live with him by the power of God toward you" is a relationship lifestyle reference)

One of the key lessons of 1 Corinthian 1 is that God chooses the weak people of this world to shame the wise.

May I suggest that perhaps you've overlooked 1 & 2 Corinthians because Mormon leaders have bogged down its grassroots with all this added nonsense (BoM/D&C/an Egyptian funeral document)?

[Tennessee Nana]

How many new “books of mormon” have mormons put out now that change the wording to be more “convenient” ???

about 4,000 changes...

oh dear

the mormon god/gods have tended to change their minds a lot in 187 years since Joey Smith wrote his first book of mormon and invented mormonism ...

Why even the first one was “authored by Joseph Smith Junior”..

Tell me...

Do the break off group of mormons in SLC still give Joey Smith credit for his artistic contribution to their exclusive religious beliefs ???

[Tennessee Nana]

One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is my beloved son. Hear Him!
____________________________________

But what was the name of the “one”

and what was the name of her son ???

Since we dont know if the one was male or female let’s guess she was a woman for now...

after all kid...

“personages” can be female...

Joey Smith apparantly didnt say “two men”

and then that dumb “son” didnt say anything to Joey Smith soo that Joey could “hear him”

what was that about ???

poor idiot Joey didnt hear from the “son” or learn anything that day as he slept off his drunk under that there grove of trees..

[StormPrepper]

[stormprepper]"Paul's letters were directed to specific people in the Church in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, they were official and authoritative."

[Colofornian]"The Apostles creed was directed to specific people in the church of Jesus Christ of former-day Saints in order to instruct and correct them. So yes, they were official and authoritative -- given by the authorized leaders within the church of Jesus Christ of former-day Saints."

Paul was a real Apostle of Jesus Christ, who prophesied, and was directed by the Lord Himself. And you compare that with some ambiguous writing that shows up almost 400 years after the Apostles. Paul was authorized by the Lord face to face. 400 years after Paul men were authorized by other men only. There's no comparison.

"And, at least in the Lds "apostle" Bruce McConkie's mind,"

Please explain your mind reading skills and techniques.

"So yes, at least from a Mormon point of view"

You have never been a Mormon. I have been a Mormon for 30 years. How do you have the slightest clue what a Mormon view point is? Especially when you're told you're wrong and corrected, you won't accept the correction.

"as testified to by Deseret Book publishers...owned by the Mormon church"

Deseret Book

"it was a FORMAL, OFFICIAL rendering"

It is not published by the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Period. My scriptures are, my Sunday school manual is, Bruce R. McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine" is not. Are you able to understand the difference? The Presidency of the Church did have a vested interest in making sure it was accurate, mainly because of the title Elder McConkie was putting on it. But it is not an official Church publication. The Ensign magazine is an official publication, "Mormon Doctrine" is not.

The First Presidency gave Elder McConkie input to help him with this personal book release.

Official publications by the Church are printed regardless of sales numbers. "Mormon Doctrine" was printed and reprinted based on sales numbers. Which is why it's no longer printed. Deseret Book decided to no longer print it because sales figures were low.

[Tennessee Nana]

Stormy speaking of the false prophet, Joey Smith...

Your own words tweaked a bit to give them better context

“Paul was a real Apostle of Jesus Christ, who prophesied, and was directed by the Lord Himself. And you compare that with some ambiguous writing that shows up almost 1800 years after the Apostles. Paul was authorized by the Lord face to face. 1800 years after Paul men were authorized by other men only. There’s no comparison.”

[Elsie]

You have proven more times than can be counted to view the truth as "lame".

I realize that you think your spoutings are TRUTH!; but the rest of us know otherwise.

[Elsie]

Sure it does, if you conveniently change the words... How many new "Bibles" have Evangelicals put out now that change the wording to be more "convenient"?

Do you REALLY want to go here?

I predict that CHANGES to the BoM will now appear in this thread....

[Elsie]

I doubt if anyone standing in the presence of God actually has to be introduced.

Then you would be wrong yet again...

Your very own Prophet did NOT use his technique of determining an imposter.

---

 Doctrine and Covenants       Section 129

 

Instructions given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, 9 February 1843, making known three grand keys by which the correct nature of ministering angels and spirits may be distinguished (see History of the Church, 5:267).

1–3, There are both resurrected and spirit bodies in heaven; 4–9, Keys are given whereby messengers from beyond the veil may be identified.
1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones;
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.
4 When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you.
5 If he be an angel he will do so, and you will feel his hand.
6 If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect he will come in his glory; for that is the only way he can appear;
7 Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move, because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive; but he will still deliver his message.
8 If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands he will offer you his hand, and you will not feel anything; you may therefore detect him.
9 These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God.

       Joseph Smith

[boatbums]

Sure it does, if you conveniently change the words... How many new "Bibles" have Evangelicals put out now that change the wording to be more "convenient"?

I think you Mormons have plenty of "conveniently" changed words in the Joseph Smith version of the Bible. I'd be careful with those stones you are throwing, living in that glass house and all.

I noticed that you didn't respond to the other scriptures I posted. Was that a bit too inconvenient?

It was inconvenient only because of the late hour in which I responded. I also tend to think that responses get lost in the crowd when a bunch of points are addressed in one post. What additional points would you like to hear my thoughts on?

The real problem I think Mormons have - and they are not alone in this - is that they start with a false concept about the Lord Jesus Christ and then interpret Scripture through those "colored glasses". However, if one starts with the truth that Almighty God, Jehovah, is the ONLY, TRUE GOD, that besides Him there is NO savior, that He ALONE is the Creator of all that exists or ever did exist, then the RIGHT view of who Jesus is can be understood. Jesus is Almighty God incarnate (in the flesh) just as prophecy said He would be. He is "God who saves us", Emmanuel/Jehoshua/Yeshua, as His very name means. And the Prophets of the Lord said that one day, Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14) and again, For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6)

In Mormonism, y'all believe that Almighty God was once a man who became a God, am I correct? Yet, throughout the word of God He says that he ALWAYS existed, that He is the "self-existent one", the I AM. How should an honest Bible student then understand verses that speak of Jesus as a man, yet who existed from all eternity as the Son of God? How should an honest Bible student understand verses that speak of Jesus, as a man, being in submission to the Father? How can one rectify what, on the surface, seems to be a contradiction? I'll tell you how...by being CONSISTENT in interpreting Scripture BY Scripture and not leaning to ones own human understanding. It takes the illumination of the indwelling Holy Spirit to make the word of God clear and it WILL be clear when we seek for truth with all our hearts. I encourage you to continue to seek for the truth.

[Elsie]

Why? Because they are given by man.

Yeah, Stormy; your church's CREED was given by man alright.

And it is SO precise in it's wording; too!

...and so forth

TWICE!!!

Here is MORMONism's own creed:

---

 

 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

[Elsie]

Dang!

I is a PROPHET!!

Worship me!!!!

[Elsie]

President Hugh B. Brown, counselor in the First Presidency said:

“I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent – if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression. . .

 This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. . . .

We must preserve the freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it.”

 

(Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life: The Memoirs of Hugh B. Brown, ed. Edwin B. Firmage (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1988), 137-39;

Hugh B. Brown, “An Eternal Quest—Freedom of the Mind,” a speech delivered at Brigham Young University, 13 May 1969, in Speeches of the Year (Provo, UT): Brigham Young University Press, 1969); rpt.

In Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 17 (Spring 1984): 77-83)