Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
The bigger news is that Mary was a NUN!!!!!
I didn’t know nuns got married with no intent of holding to their marriage vows but forcing the poor husband into a life of chastity.
It’s that grounds for an annulment?
I’ve never met a Catholic who reads the bible.
That is not a problem, for said and evidenced, as written, Scripture was the standard for obedience and establishing truth claims, to which additional writings has to conform to in word and in power, as did men of God. Which is what and how the Lord established His claims in defiance of those who sat in the seat of Moses, who rejected this Itinerant Preacher, beginning the church in dissent.
Protestant pastors don’t address these questions because they’re impossible for.Protestantism to answer.
That is simply ignorance, while it is RCs who fail to answer the problem with their premise that being the stewards of Divine revelation and inheritor of the promises of God of His presence and preservation, and thus having historical descent, establishes them as the infallible interpreters of Scripture.
RC doctrine does not restrict believers to being saints to Heaven, though her certified saints are there, but the texts you and i provided, and there are more, show the title "saint" is used for believers in general.
No one sees Mary higher than Jesus; however, it is silly to say that veneration of any saint takes something away from the focus on Jesus. That is why they are saints: because they “hear the word of God, and keep it”.
Indeed, and Christ is seen conversing with such men at His transfiguration, in the presence of Peter, John and James, teaching them and us that it is possible to have conversation with an Old Testament saint. It was not however the norm, and certainly the idea contradicts rabbinical Judaism. However, in Tobias we see Archangel Raphael interceding for Tobias and his son throughout, and Raphael said "I offered thy prayer to the Lord" in Tobias 12:12, showing that the eyes of the Jews were gradually being opened toward the reality of the coming Kingdom. Nevertheless without a firm faith in specifically the Christ, Whose sacrifice creates the multitudinous Catholic Church a prayer to either a saint or an angel could not really take shape.
an ear to hear what Scripture says
And it says: I give you life abundant, and St. Paul says "to me death is gain ... a thing far better" (Philippians 1:21-23), and treasure awaits us in heaven when we die (Mark 10:21).. You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?
As you specifically used the word saints - not believers - which according to Rome (not Scripture) are only those believers in Heaven, and abundantly life as relating to the afterlife, thus it appears this is what the "abundant" aspect referred to
I would not use the word "believer" as a synonym for "saint" because we are not saved by faith alone. However, to call someone a living saint is entirely possible, and in fact St. Paul often called living people saints. The point is not that a life of a Catholic Christian is not abundant as he bathes in the sanctifying grace of the Church daily, but that our life takes on a different and augmented character should we die a good death.
The angels was given the prayers as an offering to be made at the time of the trumpet judgments, not as a regular postal service that delivers prayers
Note: first it was not a prayer but a "memorial"; then it became prayer but not by saints, and now it is, finally, a prayer -- you still cannot bring yourself to quote fully "of the saints", but for some Pavlovian reason that prayer is only possible after the the trumpet and not before the trumpet. And besides, the first time the "prayers of saints" are offered is immediately after the Eucharistic Jesus becomes apparent, in Rev. 5:8, as He becomes apparent at every Mass. This is getting quite comical.
still does not support praying to them.
How do you think they become cognizant?
Your first three questions do not arise if you understand what a prayer to a saint is. Of course these are instances when a saint joins me in praying with me to God. Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20). I already commented that veneration of saints was a spontaneous development outside of the scope of the scripture. It is about as silly to ask for instances of fully developed veneration of saints in the scripture as to ask for instances of driving cars and flying airplanes in scripture.
4. Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ?
Indeed there is, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1), right before St. Paul speaks of Christ being One mediator. Read the Hoyl Scripture once in a while and you, too will become Catholic and will be able to explain it to others.
5. Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven?
While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such "insufficiency". An example of a saint provides instruction not found in the Scripture, because saints come from all cultures, historical periods and walks of life, same as people wishing to be saved.
6. Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation?
Both: people pray to saints silently, and also in full voice, and also are visited by saints in rarer moments. Our Lady visited a whole town in Portugal once. Why is that an important distinction?
7. Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience
What the exact mechanism of a saint hearing and answering prayer is, we don't know, but we know that somehow it is possible due to the scripture already discussed: the similarity to angels, clarity of vision, etc. With God, dear Dan, everything is possible.
True, but "wilderness" probably refers to monastic lifestyle rather than a geographical desert. Please post the pictures.
And I met plenty.
Probably????
More guess work, speculation and *sacred tradition*?
How about posting some Scripture to support it, something solid, clear, and unambiguous?
This is where she lived, according to tradition:
Some of the trinkets at the giftshop:
And as a bonus, this is where John wrote Revelation. You go inside this building and it takes you down into a cave where he lived.
Where the good citizens of Ephesus rioted because of Paul:
Acts 19:28 When they heard this they were enraged and were crying out, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" 29 So the city was filled with the confusion, and they rushed together into the theater, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Macedonians who were Paul's companions in travel. 30 But when Paul wished to go in among the crowd, the disciples would not let him. 31 And even some of the Asiarchs, who were friends of his, sent to him and were urging him not to venture into the theater. 32 Now some cried out one thing, some another, for the assembly was in confusion, and most of them did not know why they had come together. 33 Some of the crowd prompted Alexander, whom the Jews had put forward. And Alexander, motioning with his hand, wanted to make a defense to the crowd. 34 But when they recognized that he was a Jew, for about two hours they all cried out with one voice, "Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!" 35 And when the town clerk had quieted the crowd, he said, "Men of Ephesus, who is there who does not know that the city of the Ephesians is temple keeper of the great Artemis, and of the sacred stone that fell from the sky?
The scripture only tells us of her life in the community of Apostles in Acts 1. I simply tried to put the “wilderness” into a plausible perspective; I do not claim to know for sure. The traditional account has her overseeing a community of young girls, which would make her a proto-abbess. Remember that a monastery was a natural way for a window to end her days, although the practice took off a couple of centuries later.
Thank you, Gamecock for these photos, they are a joy to see. NYer had a thread about the Ephesus house.
My pleasure.
Mrs. Gamecock and I took a Greek cruise for our 20th anniversary and these were some of the sights. While I don’t put much stock in Mary having lived there, it was certainly an interesting stop. Off to the side was a huge baptismal, the size of a small swimming pool. Don’t want to admit it to my Baptist brothers, but based on the size I would say they dunked new believers.
Ephesus was truly wonderful. I would like to go back one day.
Mark 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
HUH?
WHEN you 'die' you get to SLEEP until the Last Trump sounds*.
AFTER the Judgement is when you do any receivin'! (Rev. 20:11-13)
* Ephesians 5:14
1 Thessalonians 4:16
How do you tell a DEMONic visitation from a Saintly one?
Huh?
Why are you GUESSING?
Dang!
I shudda read ahead!
So; there is a position available in the MAgesterium, and you are updating your resume?
WOW!
Did she get a 3 day pass or WHAT?
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The above MUST be a very bad translation; for I'm just SURE that John meant to write:
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