Indeed, and Christ is seen conversing with such men at His transfiguration, in the presence of Peter, John and James, teaching them and us that it is possible to have conversation with an Old Testament saint. It was not however the norm, and certainly the idea contradicts rabbinical Judaism. However, in Tobias we see Archangel Raphael interceding for Tobias and his son throughout, and Raphael said "I offered thy prayer to the Lord" in Tobias 12:12, showing that the eyes of the Jews were gradually being opened toward the reality of the coming Kingdom. Nevertheless without a firm faith in specifically the Christ, Whose sacrifice creates the multitudinous Catholic Church a prayer to either a saint or an angel could not really take shape.
an ear to hear what Scripture says
And it says: I give you life abundant, and St. Paul says "to me death is gain ... a thing far better" (Philippians 1:21-23), and treasure awaits us in heaven when we die (Mark 10:21).. You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?
As you specifically used the word saints - not believers - which according to Rome (not Scripture) are only those believers in Heaven, and abundantly life as relating to the afterlife, thus it appears this is what the "abundant" aspect referred to
I would not use the word "believer" as a synonym for "saint" because we are not saved by faith alone. However, to call someone a living saint is entirely possible, and in fact St. Paul often called living people saints. The point is not that a life of a Catholic Christian is not abundant as he bathes in the sanctifying grace of the Church daily, but that our life takes on a different and augmented character should we die a good death.
The angels was given the prayers as an offering to be made at the time of the trumpet judgments, not as a regular postal service that delivers prayers
Note: first it was not a prayer but a "memorial"; then it became prayer but not by saints, and now it is, finally, a prayer -- you still cannot bring yourself to quote fully "of the saints", but for some Pavlovian reason that prayer is only possible after the the trumpet and not before the trumpet. And besides, the first time the "prayers of saints" are offered is immediately after the Eucharistic Jesus becomes apparent, in Rev. 5:8, as He becomes apparent at every Mass. This is getting quite comical.
still does not support praying to them.
How do you think they become cognizant?
Your first three questions do not arise if you understand what a prayer to a saint is. Of course these are instances when a saint joins me in praying with me to God. Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20). I already commented that veneration of saints was a spontaneous development outside of the scope of the scripture. It is about as silly to ask for instances of fully developed veneration of saints in the scripture as to ask for instances of driving cars and flying airplanes in scripture.
4. Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ?
Indeed there is, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1), right before St. Paul speaks of Christ being One mediator. Read the Hoyl Scripture once in a while and you, too will become Catholic and will be able to explain it to others.
5. Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven?
While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such "insufficiency". An example of a saint provides instruction not found in the Scripture, because saints come from all cultures, historical periods and walks of life, same as people wishing to be saved.
6. Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation?
Both: people pray to saints silently, and also in full voice, and also are visited by saints in rarer moments. Our Lady visited a whole town in Portugal once. Why is that an important distinction?
7. Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience
What the exact mechanism of a saint hearing and answering prayer is, we don't know, but we know that somehow it is possible due to the scripture already discussed: the similarity to angels, clarity of vision, etc. With God, dear Dan, everything is possible.
Mark 10:21
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
HUH?
WHEN you 'die' you get to SLEEP until the Last Trump sounds*.
AFTER the Judgement is when you do any receivin'! (Rev. 20:11-13)
* Ephesians 5:14
1 Thessalonians 4:16
How do you tell a DEMONic visitation from a Saintly one?
WOW!
Did she get a 3 day pass or WHAT?
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
The above MUST be a very bad translation; for I'm just SURE that John meant to write:
Fatima
The Moors once occupied Portugal. The village of Fatima was given the Islamic name of the well-loved Princess of the nearby Castle of Ourem. She died at an early age after marrying the Count of Ourem and converting to Catholicism. Baptized with the Christian name of Oureana, she was named at birth "Fatima," like many other Moslem girls, in honor of the daughter of Mohammed. Of his daughter, Fatima, the founder of Islam, Mohammed, said: "She has the highest place in heaven after the Virgin Mary."
It is a fact that Moslems from various nations, especially from the Middle East, make so many pilgrimages to Our Lady of Fatima's Shrine in Portugal that Portuguese officials have expressed concern. The combination of an Islamic name and Islamic devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is a great attraction to Moslems. God is writing straight with crooked lines, as we will see. Fatima is a part of Heaven's Peace Plan. It is hope for the world.
"Indeed" only confirms my reply exposing the spurious nature of your excuse for the total absence of any prayers to anyone in Heaven due, as even some lack of available sanctification would not excuse not seeking help by praying angels in heaven.
However, in Tobias we see Archangel Raphael interceding for Tobias...
It seems you are out to convince Catholics. Tobit is quite a tale, with a a women, Sarah, who has lost seven husbands because Asmodeus, the demon of lust, and 'the worst of demons', abducts and kills every man she marries on their wedding night before the marriage can be consummated!
And a man, Tobias, who was sleeping with his eyes open while birds dropped dung into in his eyes (sound sleeper!) and blinded him. And who later is attacked by a fish leaping out of the river to devour him. But Raphael has him capture it and later he burns the fish's liver and heart to drive away the demon Asmodeus away to Upper Egypt, enabling him and Sarah to consummate his marriage.
It goes on, and the book is charged with having some historical errors, but in any case this cannot do for Scriptural support for us, not only because we do not hold it as Scripture, but because it still does not support praying to angels or men in Heaven.
And it says: I give you life abundant, and St. Paul says "to me death is gain ... a thing far better" (Philippians 1:21-23), and treasure awaits us in heaven when we die (Mark 10:21).. You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?
Pure insolence, To the contrary, because i am familiar (and just finished debating a soul sleeper here on FR in which this was one of evidences i invoked against it) i exposed such attempts as the egregious extrapolations that they are. For that "abundant" refers to or includes being a heavenly object of almost infinite prayers to them is simply speculation, while such is contrary to who prayer addresses in the multitude of prayers to Heaven the Holy Spirit provides for us. And i could ask, "You are not familiar with these parts of the Holy Scripture?," but i do no wish to act so insolent.
Making basic doctrines out of what could be is not sound but is what cults like the Mormons engage in (likewise operating out of sola ecclesia).
I would not use the word "believer" as a synonym for "saint" because we are not saved by faith alone. However, to call someone a living saint is entirely possible, and in fact St. Paul often called living people saints.
"Believer" is indeed a synonym for "saint" not only because the Holy Spirit obviously uses it that way many times but because we are not saved by a faith that is alone, thus it is impossible to be a true believer who does not have the kind of faith that effects the "obedience of faith." (Rm. 16:26; Heb. 5:9; 6:9)
However, while i am aware that RC doctrine does not restrict saints to being in Heaven, i was referring to the postmortem class of believers, in which you restrict those who are now with the Lord to being of the saint class. But again, sorry for any misunderstanding as to your argument.
Note: first it was not a prayer but a "memorial"; then it became prayer but not by saints, and now it is, finally, a prayer
Not so, and this is the second time you miscomprehended what i said, which was "that the offering up of incense was an O.T. ordinance, and in Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God," not that the prayers themselves were only a memorial but that the offering was, rather than prayers needing a postal service. The former type of offering of something with incense as a memorial has Scriptural support, (Lv. 2:2,15,16; 24:7; Num. 5:15) that angels serve as a postal service with souls praying to them in Heaven has none.
-- you still cannot bring yourself to quote fully "of the saints", but for some Pavlovian reason that prayer is only possible after the the trumpet and not before the trumpet.
Your attempted mind reading points to RCs who must engage in such when faced with a lack of proof and their own arguments are exposed as specious. And here the reason is not "Pavlovian" but proper exegesis, as you are attempting to provide support for angels, and by extension, mortals, being heavenly secretaries so that they can be prayed to, but this text only speaks of this at a specific time, with no hint of this being a regular occurrence, which in any case does not offer an example of prayer being made to them.
And besides, the first time the "prayers of saints" are offered is immediately after the Eucharistic Jesus becomes apparent, in Rev. 5:8, as He becomes apparent at every Mass. This is getting quite comical.
Indeed it is comical, that of as your attempt at sarcasm in the face of the absence if Scriptural support for PTDS, and your own arguments which now resort to having Rev. 5:8 support Jesus making an appearance in the RCs Mass! But perhaps a diversion is needed.
I guess this, along with the use of Tobias, means you are attempting to convince RCs, At least it provides evidence that the Catholic church did not rewrite the Bible as Islamists argue, but it would not take much, among other things, to place at least one prayer to saints in Heaven, or have Jesus appear as a wafer of bread in Heaven.
till does not support praying to them.
s How do you think they become cognizant?
Not by being prayed to, while despite RC efforts, saints being cognizant of believers needs is not proved nor would it support prayers to them in Heaven anyway. Give it up.
Your first three questions do not arise if you understand what a prayer to a saint is. Of course these are instances when a saint joins me in praying with me to God. Where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. (Matthew 18:20).
We are dealing with prayers to Heaven, God's throne, and despite the extrapolation from earthly relationships which you must resort to for support, once again, the Holy Spirit did not provide one example of praying to anyone in Heave but the Lord, and taught believers have direct access to the Lord in the holy of holies, not via a saintly secretary.
I already commented that veneration of saints was a spontaneous development outside of the scope of the scripture.
Indeed; then Rcs should cease their attempts to wrest support for this tradition from Scripture.
It is about as silly to ask for instances of fully developed veneration of saints in the scripture as to ask for instances of driving cars and flying airplanes in scripture.
That is an absurd comparison. Unlike driving cars, souls have been able to pray to other beings than God since they were created, but instead they only prayed to God again and again. Meanwhile, having direct access to God means it surpasses other means, while cars are needed for faster transportation.
Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ?
Indeed there is, "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men" (1 Timothy 2:1), right before St. Paul speaks of Christ being One mediator. Read the Hoyl Scripture once in a while and you, too will become Catholic and will be able to explain it to others.
Again resorting to sarcasm points it back to you, as while I evidence i read Scripture, and have even provide almost every prayer in it (besides almost every book i have read) , what you dismiss is the lack of any "Heavenly intercessor" besides Christ, and so you read it read into Scripture!
Read the Holy Scripture more than once in a while and with an honest objective heart, which RCs cannot do, and you too may become a born again Christian and able to explain it to others without reading into it.
Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven?
While Christ is the sole source of salvation, the believer must apply his Redemption to his unique circumstance in life. See, for example, Col 1:24 where Paul speaks of such "insufficiency".
An answer wresting Scripture which avoids the fact that there is no insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven. Besides and because of the afflictions of Christ there are sufferings yet to be endured by saints for his body's sake, which is the church, for which Paul suffered for in this life and would be rewarded for in the next, but which does not attribute any lack in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him that would warrant praying to others in Heaven? It is sin that you think otherwise, and thus must read into Scripture that which is not there in order to support a tradition of men.
Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation?
Both: people pray to saints silently, and also in full voice, and also are visited by saints in rarer moments. Our Lady visited a whole town in Portugal once. Why is that an important distinction?
Because any interaction btwn saints above and those below required them to be in the same realm, while the Lord is the only one shown being addressed in prayer to Heaven, not being restricted by the division btwn realms. Some believers were in a vision taken to the heavenly realm, but this is not the same as prayer to heaven, and none prayed to mortals in Heaven. As for visions of Mary, that is a related debate, and what this Mary says as compared with Scripture.
Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience
What the exact mechanism of a saint hearing and answering prayer is, we don't know, but we know that somehow it is possible due to the scripture already discussed: the similarity to angels, clarity of vision, etc. With God, dear Dan, everything is possible.
God is able to give believers a place to dwell on Mars for a time, or require the use of Dial soap. But you do not make doctrines out of what God can do and on a subject in which He has spoken abundantly on what He does do. Unless you subject Scripture to some men and an individual claiming assured infallibility. For with Rome everything is possible.
Anyway, this is becoming redundant, and once again has exposed the absence of actual Scriptural support for PTDS, and unless more is needed,i think it is best to move on, as i think the strategy of some FR RCs is to try to use up our time in a case as this.
Good Post