Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
BINGO!!!
We have a winner!
YOU actually posted THIS??
So what we have here is the Catholic church giving its stamp of approval to a clear violation of the Scripture it claims it wrote, condoning and encouraging sin in the life of the Catholic.
James 2:1-13 My brothers, show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.
The Catholic church is not only teaching but encouraging its members to be respecters of persons.
He doesn't. Read the Bible every once in a while with attention and you, too, will be Catholic like me and understand the Holy Scripture.
Thank you. All who argued that saints in heaven do not have abundant life that exceeds ours in every sense should read this passage and reflect on it.
Not replying to anyone in particular. I haven’t been on FR in quite a while. It amazes me that this discussion is still/always going on.
Simply...as high as you want to put Mary up on the temple, she will never be higher then Jesus. So any focus on her, is simply focus away from HIM.
You just CAN'T make this stuff UP! ;^)
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked.
"Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
You must have a faulty translation; for EVERYone knows that MARY, Queen of Heaven; was born of a woman; and she is SURELY greater that JtB!!!
--CAtholic_wanna_be(I trust the Magisterium for MY faith!)
If listening to a bunch of prayers 24/7/365 is all SAINTS in Heaven get to do; then who - in their right mind - would want a job like that?
Your break is SURELY over by now; as it's been almost 12 years...
Glad to have you on board.
I hope you can be with us a bit more often.
LOVED your testimony!
Nobody argued that saints in heaven don’t have abundant life.
All saints, those here on earth, too, have abundant life in Christ.
If that's an example of the abundant life Catholics can look forward to......
I'll take the rest for my soul that Jesus promised.
To what end? Sanctification was not available on the regular basis prior to the Church age.
A vain argument. Sanctification was needed, and sought and to varying degrees obtained by men prior to the Church age, as seen by men such as Daniel, Job and Noah, David, Zechariah, etc., with the quest for such abundantly evidenced in the Psalms.
"In the day when I cried thou answeredst me, and strengthenedst me with strength in my soul. " (Psalms 138:3)
In addition, as examples of many Catholic prayers attests, PTDS is not simply for sanctification, but protection and help in temporal matters, etc. The very fact that sanctification and supernatural help was sought and obtained to varying degrees would makes prayer to angels a fitting and recorded among the approx. 100 prayers in Scripture, but there is none, and instead prayer is made directly to God.
"My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation is from him. He only is my rock and my salvation: he is my defence; I shall not be moved..."Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. " (Psalms 62:5-6,8)
Your conclusion simply does not follow
For people familiar with the concept of eternal life after death being like a treasure in heaven, which St. Paul longed for, it does. for someone with a tin ear for the Holy Scripture, -- I don't know.
A tin ear?! Rather it is an ear to hear what Scripture says versus Roman reading into it that which they desire it to mean!
Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now
I never denied that;
Thank you for the clarification, and sorry for any misunderstanding. As you specifically used the word saints - not believers - which according to Rome (not Scripture) are only those believers in Heaven, and abundantly life as relating to the afterlife, thus it appears this is what the "abundant" aspect referred to. In any case, there is simply no evidence of them being prayed to, or even hearing and answering prayers addressed to them.
They are "prayers of the saints" so they were prayed by the saints. You are ignoring plain scripture, and repeatedly.
The angels was given the prayers as an offering to be made at the time of the trumpet judgments, not as a regular postal service that delivers prayers, which is what this text is used to support, and for praying to them and by extension, to saints.
Instead, what is taught is that believers have boldness to enter into the very holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, therewith to meet directly with God. (Heb. 10:19) You are ignoring what Scripture plainly states, and reading into it that which is not there due to a lack of any actual support for PTDS, and treat Scripture as something you can manipulate to serve Rome, and repeatedly so.
this does not support praying to them
At a minimum, it shows that saints are cognizant of our affairs, and so it becomes reasonable to also pray for they witness to Christ.
More is required for PTDS than saints simply being cognizant of our affairs, and nothing shows this except your eagerness to see Scripture as showing what it does not state, but at best may only allow for that, which still does not support praying to them.
The closest you can come to saints being cognizant of our affairs is Rv. 6:10, but which simply shows a query and cry for justice. I have no doubt they know the end is near due to the increased population in Heaven, and activity therein, but this is not the same thing as hearing and responding to prayers, much less advocating praying to them, rather than directly to the Lord, after the manner of every prayer to Heaven in Scripture and the doctrine of it.
In review:
1. In its multitudes of prayers, does Scripture provide even one prayer by believers praying to anyone in Heaven but the Lord? ? No!
2. Does Scripture provide any kind of supplication being made to anyone in Heaven but the Lord? Yes. By pagans! (Jer. 44)
3. Does Scripture teach us to pray to or call upon anyone in Heaven but the Lord? No.
"But thou, when thou prayest,...pray to thy Father..." "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (Matthew 6:6,9)
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. " (Romans 10:13)
4. Is there any need for an Heavenly intercessor btwn God and man save for Christ? No, believers have direct access to God in the holy of holies.
5. Is there any insufficiency in Christ, from accessibility to ability to relate to man and make intercession for him, that would warrant praying to others in Heaven? No; Christ is uniquely and supremely able as the believer compassionate high priest, accessibly to all by faith.
6. Was any interaction btwn believers from Heaven and those on earth that of mental prayer to them, or a personal visitation? The latter.
7. Does Scripture actually show that the departed are given the Divine attribute close to omniscience, so they can hear and process an infinite amount of prayer? No; only the Lord is shown being able to do so.
I could go one but for time constraints. No other basic necessary practice has zero positive examples and such a lack of substantiation, and contrary to what is taught on who the direct object of prayer to Heaven is, and access thereto.
Not in the false elitist church which exalts itself, but to be in Christ is to be in the body of Christ, the one true church, as it only contains true believers, not its various (as seen in Rv. 2,3) visible manifestations, which contains an admixture of both.
"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. " (1 Corinthians 12:13)
That is the one body which Rome seeks to foist herself upon as supreme, but will result in being debased.
"And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God " (Romans 8:27) - while the rest of believers are on their own.
"Distributing to the necessity of saints" (Romans 12:13) - but you can ignore the the rest of believers.
"Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints " (Ephesians 6:18) - but you can ignore the the rest of believers.
2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God that is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia:
Ephesians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:1-2 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the overseers and deacons: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Colossians 1:1-2 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brothers in Christ at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father.
Acts 9:32 Now as Peter went here and there among them all, he came down also to the saints who lived at Lydda.
Acts 26:10 And I (Paul) did so in Jerusalem. I not only locked up many of the saints in prison after receiving authority from the chief priests, but when they were put to death I cast my vote against them.
Mary was in the wilderness?
I though she packed her bags and moved to modern day Turkey, near Ephesus. I’ve been there. I have pictures. I’ll repost them later.
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