Veneration of Mary in Luke 11:27-28

August 15, 2013 | Annalex

[annalex]

Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:

Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)

What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:

Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)

The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source

Note that there is no condemnation here, not even asking the woman to stop; the "yea rather" (μενουνγε) is not a negation. It is used other times in the New Testament without a hint of negation. In Philippians 3:8 "αλλα μενουνγε και ηγουμαι παντα ζημιαν ειναι", "Furthermore I count all things to be but loss" (Textus Receptus 1550/1894, Byzantine/Majority Text 2000 has here "αλλα μεν ουν και ηγουμαι…" which is the same word morphology spelled separately and colliding affirmative "γε" with the following "και"). Romans 9:20 "μενουνγε ω ανθρωπε συ τις ει ο ανταποκρινομενος τω θεω" and Romans 10:18 "μενουνγε εις πασαν την γην εξηλθεν ο φθογγος αυτων" use the word reinforcing the subsequent statement. Some translations obscure this linguistic fact: in King James for example, the same word is rendered correctly, "yea rather" in Luke 11:28, wholly incongruously, "nay but" in Romans 9:20, but in Romans 10:18 the translation is again correct, "Yes verily". NRSV has both correct and elegant translations for all three. (See The Holy Mother and the "ΜΕΝΟΥΝΓΕ")

Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.

[Elsie]

I wonder if the Vatican caught THIS production about Mary?

[Elsie]

We ought to be in agreement on this, except that you would limit this work to living saints.

Duh!

Dead ones can't do ANYTHING!!!

---

Ecclesiastes 9:1-6

1 But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2 It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

---

And yet; there seem to be those who would claim to smarter than the wisest man who ever lived...

[Elsie]

We ought to be in agreement on this, except that you would limit this work to living saints.

Duh!

Dead ones can't do ANYTHING!!!

---

Ecclesiastes 9:1-6

1 But all this I laid to heart, examining it all, how the righteous and the wise and their deeds are in the hand of God. Whether it is love or hate, man does not know; both are before him. 2 It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath. 3 This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead. 4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

---

And yet; there seem to be those who would claim to smarter than the wisest man who ever lived...

[Elsie]

And then came the protestants...

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohmyXvEDAwM

[Elsie]

1/3

[daniel1212]

Or all sources such as provide evidence which impugns the claims and esteem of Rome are biased and their evidence is therefore invalid.

[daniel1212]

If God chose to be a man, he chose also to continue his work through the men and women of his Church. He wants his saints to be intercessors between him and us. We ought to be in agreement on this, except that you would limit this work to living saints. Remember that saints means only “holy ones.” Jesus provided us an example of holiness. Who is a saint but one who imitates Christ?

That type of reasoning to support an extra-Biblical practice is what cults must resort to, as the conclusion is simply without any actual support, and again reveals the extrapolation that RCs must resort to in attempting to provide some.

You must presume the Holy Spirit was either negligent or did not see it important even for such a fundamental practice to provide even one example of believers mentally praying to each other btwn earth and Heaven. Why does not "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name." (Mt. 6:9) have another saying, "our Mother...." (or another believer).

Similarly, "I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," likewise, "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father." (Galatians 4:6) And that "Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, " (Hebrews 10:19) is not be appended, "thru Mary and the saints in Heaven." And that of no saints it is said, "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God," who "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin; Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. . (Heb. 4:14-16) "For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted." (Hebrews 2:18)

But the Holy Spirit was not negligent, but consistent in teaching and abundantly showing that the Lord alone is the direct heavenly object of prayer, and resorting to arguments from silence and extrapolating support based upon earthly relations for something without actual support and contrary to what is exampled simply will not do as a basis for doctrine.

Moreover, this type of attempt is counterproductive, for the fact is that for RCs Scriptural substantiation is not the basis for veracity, and RC attempts trying to wrangle support from Scripture for PTDS exposes it to be a tradition of men and not of Scripture, and such attempts are repulsive to those who hold Scripture as supreme and sufficient as the standard for obedience and testing truth claims.

And of those who most perfectly imitate him are those who give up their lives proclaiming the faith, the martyrs. John describes them as well aware of the injustice that still prevails on earth. Are they “asleep,” too? The text (Rv. 6:9,10) does not necessarily indicate they were well aware of what was happening on earth, but due to what happened to them they inquire when justice will prevail, yet regardless, this does not make them heavenly objects of prayer or endow them with the power to hear infinite amounts of prayer and respond to them.

In addition, disagreeing that the deceased believers are to be prayed to does not equate to soul sleep. The will rest from their labors, (Rv. 14:13) but that does not mean they are not conscious in Heaven, which i have been spending much time defending on another FR thread.

[St_Thomas_Aquinas]

—— to support an extra-Biblical practice ——

Protestantism is BASED on the extra-biblical tradition of Sola Scriptura.

[annalex]

vainly attempt to make Scripture teach this

Well, Mary is depicted as queen, and in heaven in Rev. 12, so if that is what you are referring to, indeed, there is ample reason to call Mary "Queen of Heaven"; that's what she is simply because Christ is king. My brief question was to highlight the fact that the Holy Scripture does not generally tell us who to call what.

[BlueDragon]

Some will, in their own overweening "religious" pride, simply pan or dismiss all the information which you have assembled on the one hand...while on the other telling you to "come home" to the OTC.

I don't think the sort who indulge themselves in that sort of thing much know God at all (perhaps rather shallowly if at all?) or mistake their own having received some response from Him as validation for "all" which is claimed within "Romanism".

One thing more certain, is they scarcely understand you, even as you have gone to some significant lengths and effort to carefully document points on which you have rational disagreement with some of the historical and "typical" Romish claims.

[annalex]

I read your entire post, and will reply to a few salient points in it. If I miss anything of substance, please feel free to point to it; remember that brevity gets my attention better than verbosity, especially if you have little to say. The objection is praying to anyone other than the Creator.

Again, for a Jew that would be a natural objection; for someone who calls himself Christian this is a grave theological error that contradicts the Holy Scripture and does not recognize the reality of the Communion of saints. In the New Testament, we see multiple instances when intercessory prayer is both offered and asked for. See Romans 15:30, 2 Corinthians 13:7-9, Acts 8:24, 1 Timothy 2:1-6, James 5:16. It is of course true that any prayer to a saint is a prayer to Christ, but if you understood the nature of Catohlic prayer you would not be "objecting".

I still don't understand how the superior faculties of saints compared to me who have not yet tasted death and went to heaven are not proven definitively by the scripture in focus. Here it is again, for your convenience (from my 169):

I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly. (John 10:10)

This shows that a life of a saint is abundant compared to unbeliever; "that they may have" indicates that it is the life not yet given them rather the natural life they already have. This alone should destroy the Protestant superstition that saints are somehow dead, cannot respond to prayers, etc.

in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.(Matthew 22:30)

This shows that the saint is like an angel. But what is an angel? - A messenger of God. Saints therefore can and do fulfill requests from God and interact with us like angels do.

Know you not that we shall judge angels? (1 Corinthians 6:3)

This shows that the state of a saint is higher than an angel; while the saint possesses the faculties of an angel, his are even greater.

We see now through a glass in a dark manner; but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then I shall know even as I am known (1 Corinthians 13:12)

This shows that the intellectual ability of a saint exceeds our abilities before death.

I understand that the focus of these passages is sometime other than what a saint can or cannot do; but nevertheless this is Holy Inerrant Scripture referring to their faculties in a direct unambiguous way, and I believe the scripture, and you should too.

Romans 8:27

That indeed shows that the Holy Spirit indwells in a saint and acts through him (see also Philippians 2:13, for example). It does not mean a saint, driven by the same Holy Spirit cannot intercede to Christ for us. onsider, for example,

I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: for kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times (1 Timothy 2:1-6)

Here, of course, we see living Christians praying for others, not yet saints in heaven praying. But the principle of intercessory prayer is therefore firmly biblical. Surely we don’t imagine St. Paul telling Timothy: "once you die and go to heaven, don’t forget to stop all your prayers at once". The Holy Scripture is given us to shape our behavior both now and after we die.

Neither do I understand what your problem with the translation of Martyrdom of St. Polycarp is, that I use. do you have a different translation? Bring it up. Do you have the original? Let us look at it together.

If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse! (Gal. 1:9)

Indeed; this is why the Holy Church would not canonize a heretic with his own gospel, like Luther or Calvin or the rest of the Protestant gang of shysters. They are all anathema (different gospel) and so will remain.

[annalex]

you are completely wrong in your thinking

Would you please elaborate why?

[annalex]

As with other attempts to support with Scripture that which is merely a tradition of men, in which it is not enough to argue saints hear and deliver messages to God, but you must establish they can be prayed to, your in-credible argumentation further examples the manner of egregious extrapolation such attempts engage in, and indicates an unwillingness to objectively examine an issue due in their zeal defending the object of their devotion .

Would you parse this one for me? Guessing at the meaning, I agree that veneration of saints fully developed when the heaven became filled with saints, that is at the age of martyrs, -- roughly 2nd century, out of the historical scope of the scripture. The argument here is about the necessary elements of veneration of saints in the Holy Scripture.

εγω ηλθον ινα ζωην εχωσιν και περισσον εχωσιν (John 10:10)

Literally, "I come so that life have and more have", so the afterlife is "more". Deal with it.

that they are presently dead is a minority position usually held by cults.

Indeed. Thank you. That is the objection I hear most often from Protestant cultists. May they ever come to the liberty of the True Church.

being like something does not necessarily equate to having all their abilities

Well, no, not necessarily, but for the comparison to be even possible the faculties of an angel have to somehow match the faculties of a saint. Also see the "περισσον" above and the ability of a saint to judge the angels.

this position is not given until after the resurrection

The saints shall receive their glorified bodies after the resurrection; it is not clear how possession of a body restricts the saint's intellectual ability now.

Rev. 8:3,4 it appears to be a memorial unto God, and offers dubious support that prayers needed or had an angelic postal service in order to reach God, and offers zero support that they were prayed to.

The Holy Scripture calls them "prayers", not "memorial". I prefer to believe the Holy Scripture rather than you.

being able to be like the Almighty in being able to hear and answer infinite amounts of prayer (they must lest you get a busy signal) and are to be prayed to, but this text simply does not teach that

It does describe the ability to "see clearly", so yes, given that a saint does not need vision to drive to work and back, I'd say, it has to do with the ability of saints to comprehend our affairs and therefore comprehend prayers when addressed to them. See also Hebrews 12:1.

i am sure your position does not have their [the fathers of the Church] actual unanimous consent

On almost any subject there would be a variety of opinions expressed by the fathers. I would be happy to discuss any particular patristic work with you and see how close to the consensus patrum I am and your sample would be.

[BipolarBob]

" to highlight the fact that the Holy Scripture does not generally tell us who to call what."

But apparently you and your Church has no problem going where angels fear to tread.

[BipolarBob]

"Well, Mary is depicted as queen, and in heaven in Rev. 12"

Of course you are wrong again. The woman in this instance is, of course, the true Church. In OT refer to Isa 54:5,6 and Jer. 6:2. When the church has become corrupted, then she is referred to as a impure woman Jer. 3:20 and Eze 23:2-4. The figure in Rev. 12 has produced the Christ and is later persecuted (as the early Church was). Clothed with the sun being the Glory of God accompanied by the 12 stars are the twelve Apostles who followed Him.

[HiTech RedNeck]

One’s overall spiritual attitude will color how one sees the scriptures.

I do weigh in on the side that says that unhealthy and unholy preoccupation with Mary and other saints does exist. It shows itself by not glorifying God ourselves. Mary might have more grace than the rest of the saints combined, but if she IS praying for her brothers and sisters, it would be for them to glorify the Lord too, not just to hail her and thank her and stop like she was some side show in the picture. I mean the thing Mary is sometimes likened to is a prayer warrior that you know. And so if you call up this prayer warrior, call him Ralph, you ask Ralph please pray for this issue. Well if Ralph does and God is then glorified in your life through a miraculous grace, what’s your response. “Thank you, Ralph”? Well yes, but also BOTH you and Ralph will be praising the Lord. That’s the element I see troublingly missing here. Mary’s praise can’t excuse your lack of praise.

[BipolarBob]

Mary is sometimes likened to is a prayer warrior that you know.

I don't know Mary. Mary is dead. I don't pray to her or channel her or ask her for any intercession. Any focus on Mary is a focus off of Jesus. Jesus refused to give her audience because she was going to try to persuade Him to not offend the priests. Matt. 12:47,48. Had they met He would have had to rebuke her with a "Get thee behind me Satan" and He wished to spare her that. Pick a live prayer warrior.

[BipolarBob]

Mary is sometimes likened to is a prayer warrior that you know.

I don't know Mary. Mary is dead. I don't pray to her or channel her or ask her for any intercession. Any focus on Mary is a focus off of Jesus. Jesus refused to give her audience because she was going to try to persuade Him to not offend the priests. Matt. 12:47,48. Had they met He would have had to rebuke her with a "Get thee behind me Satan" and He wished to spare her that. Pick a live prayer warrior.

[BipolarBob]

Mary is sometimes likened to is a prayer warrior that you know.

I don't know Mary. Mary is dead. I don't pray to her or channel her or ask her for any intercession. Any focus on Mary is a focus off of Jesus. Jesus refused to give her audience because she was going to try to persuade Him to not offend the priests. Matt. 12:47,48. Had they met He would have had to rebuke her with a "Get thee behind me Satan" and He wished to spare her that. Pick a live prayer warrior.

[BipolarBob]

Darn this triple posting nonsense.