Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
I try!
I am REALLY annoying in real life...
The references to works OF THE LAW do not make your point, for works mentioned by St. James in chapter 2 and by St. Paul in Hebrews 11 are not works OF THE LAW.
It IS?
Sounds like OBEDIENCE to me.
Right above. Nowhere does the Holy Scripture say that we are saved by works ALONE. It always mentions good works alongside the faith, because the faith is not complete without works.
There's no need for ME to comment...
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Okey Doke.
Send me your number.
But you’ve missed the point, annalex. “They did what GOd told them to do” is absolutely correct. “That is the saving Catholic faith today” is absolutely false. The “saving” faith for today is found in the verses of Scripture I gave you: Rom. 3:21, 1:5, 6:17, 15:18, etc. THOSE are the “obedience of faith” today. Please re-read those. “BUT NOW” is vitally important to understanding.
I am not here to understand a dissertation. Do you have a question? In a 100 words or less?
Of course they are the works of the Law. There are no good works outside the works of the Law.
No it doesn't. Here's a place where it says by faith and doesn't mention works.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Romans 3:21-30 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
How to discuss in brief, things which have multiple layers? All the digging around pondering and searching here and there I do (while writing up a RF comment) leads to so much else that is connected or associated with whichever subject is spoke about, I can hardly stay narrowly enough focused, for all the dragging of my own previously unexpressed response to so many other comments which I am not openly quoting, but still making some address toward.
Those that live in this little world which is the FR RF (just us crazy people) and have been over the same grounds numerous times might be able to understand me, such as yourself and another here seem to. But I wouldn't wish all this stuff, all this back & forth disputation, on some outsider, or noob.
Simple is best, if at all possible.
That, coming from a guy who is writing a book? Ha. too funny.
I'm sorry that it couldn't be made to fit on a bumper sticker...
...but no real questions. I already know the Lord well enough, needing no basic introduction or instruction. Although all members of the body do indeed need one another, I really don't think I need much "question answering" from you, for I have seen enough, saved-by-works boy.
Instead, I am here as a witness for Christ, and to refute much of what you have to say, also.
One never knows who is going to be reading these threads, eh?
My point was that NOWHERE in Scripture is the phrase, "you are not saved by faith alone", and that IS correct. Many times in these threads we are challenged by Roman Catholics to point out where Scripture says, "Scripture alone", or find the word "Bible", and so on. This was along those same lines. I know that James speaks of our faith being exhibited to others by our works and the question is asked, "Can his faith save him?", but this is speaking in context of a brother who is naked and hungry, in need, and we say, "Go and be filled...AKA, I'll pray for you". Can that help the brother in need or is our faith made fruitful by our deeds? Like I added, there are plenty of passages that make it clear we are NOT saved by the righteous deeds we do but we are clothed in Christ's righteousness and not our own and that is how we are saved. To others eyes, our faith is justified by our actions, but to God's eyes - who alone sees the heart - our faith is counted for righteousness.
People - and not just Catholics - try to squeeze out ALL those other clear verses and delegitimize them by tossing James 2:26 onto the pile like it's their trump card. Well, it's NOT. God doesn't contradict himself and we should read ALL of that passage to understand it and not cherry pick a sentence out of it that trashes the whole doctrine of justification by faith apart from works which the rest of Scripture upholds.
When people use "faith without works is dead" from James 2:26 to nullify the grace of God, it is misuse of Scripture, as well, because a "dead" faith is one that is unfruitful. A dead faith indicates that the new birth probably hasn't taken place and the person needs to examine himself to see if he is in the faith. But it is NOT saying works MUST accompany faith in order to save us. It is not saying that works HAVE to be added to faith or else WE are dead/going to hell. Like the Reformed formula says, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.". A genuine faith WILL result in a changed life because the Holy Spirit now indwells us and we have a new spirit nature that hears the shepherd and follows Him, but our works have nothing to do with saving us. That cancels grace!
Oh, really? How would you know what I meant by saying the word "spade"? Wouldn't you need to know the CONTEXT first to tell if I was talking about a garden tool versus the suit of a playing card? So, too, is the point with this verse so frequently misused by legalists who pervert the gospel of the grace of God and try to make salvation dependent on works and not by grace through faith.
A "dead" faith is a faith that is unfruitful - just as James describes it. Read the entire chapter and you will understand that we are justified before OTHERS by our deeds, but God sees our hearts and He knows if our faith is genuine. A real faith WILL affect a changed heart and the life WILL reflect this internal, spirit new birth. But works will NEVER be a contributing factor in our salvation - it would not be grace if they did.
Truth cannot be seen when people wear blinders. Something like “scales” had to fall from Saul’s eyes before he received the truth of the Gospel and became Paul (Acts 9:18).
I have no problem admitting that I am selective of what "traditions" I will follow. It will be the ones that are taught in sacred Scripture. Catholics, too, are selective in their choice of which traditions they follow, they rarely will admit it, though.
These C vs P catfights NEED quips!
We get too DAMNED serious at times.
Both sides can point to things in the other’s past that REALLY has ticked the other side off.
But today??
Both sides will state that the other group’s members ARE on their way to Heaven (probably).
The Catholics bemoan the fact that PROTESTants will not do the things that THEY believe will give them a fuller religious life.
The PROTESTants, OTOH, bemoan the fact that Catholics do SO many extra things that are not needed to give them a full religious life.
So here we are - over 1100 replies to one another while future American citizens are being murdered in their mothers wombs, souls are dying in the streets ‘cause someone dissed them; lives are ravaged due to vicious drugs; on and on and on and...
Got a highway near you?
Stand on a bridge over it with a sign.
Got a byway, perhaps?
Walk down it.
Say “Hello!” to a stranger (or a friend), start a conversation and slip Jesus into it.
Who knows; you just save one starfish.
Everyone wants to be Philip in this thread;
but NO one wants to be the Ethiopian eunuch.
“Do you UNDERSTAND what you are reading?” is STILL valid today.
Sigh...
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