Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
Which is clearly not how that passage is tossed around by many of your fellow Roman Catholics, and if you backtrack on this thread you will see it was NOT used as you portrayed.
as expected; far easier than defending yer ilk. My apology retracted, like a string on pearls tossed out to those who sans ability to appreciate
Oh really? My principles and beliefs come strictly from scripture as opposed to Catholics who declare and proclaim theirs do not. But then they try to use scripture to bash anyone else! Duplicity comes to mind.
No, NOWHERE can you find in Scripture where it says "you are not saved by faith alone". PLENTY of places, however, that says we are saved by grace through faith APART from our works.
Well...let's see if that is what that passages teaches:
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
You foolish person, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
Go ahead and show us how this passage "pointedly and in context" teaches we are not saved by faith alone. Do you see that phrase anywhere there? In truth, no one can read that passage and come away thinking it says what you say it does UNLESS they bring a preconception and interpretation with it. To presume God would allow James to contradict all the other passages in Scripture where it IS clearly, pointedly and in context taught that we are saved by grace through faith APART from our works is preposterous. We cannot and will not be able to boast before God because it is HIS grace that saves us and not we ourselves. Nothing we do earns salvation, NOTHING.
What does the word "dead" mean to you?
Sure. Anyone could guess what that picture means......
Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.
James does say the former, but in which (Ja. 2:23,24) he contradicts Gn. 15:6 and Rm. 4:3 if speaking in the same sense. But works do justify one as having saving faith, "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. " (Romans 10:10)
For it is a faith that will effect works that is counted unto for righteousness., even before it manifests "things which accompany salvation." (Heb. 6:9).
Lost Cornelius and co. had their hearts purified by faith before baptism, and which Rome allows for as a special exemption, while despite the strawman of sola fide RCs use, the fact is that Reformers denied that one could claim salvation by a faith that would not produce works of faith.
Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn’t stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! [http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt]
This is why St. Luke and St. James have so much to say about works, so that one says: Yes, I will now believe, and then he goes and fabricates for himself a fictitious delusion, which hovers only on the lips as the foam on the water. No, no; faith is a living and an essential thing, which makes a new creature of man, changes his spirit and wholly and completely converts him. It goes to the foundation and there accomplishes a renewal of the entire man; so, if I have previously seen a sinner, I now see in his changed conduct, manner and life, that he believes. So high and great a thing is faith.”[Sermons of Martin Luther 2.2:341]
I know you know this, but it is here for the record, while some RCs in particular have shown their Roman mindlock requires going to absurd lengths to try to justify their object of devotion, the Roman church.
Thanks for posting that anyway.
The truth will always be needed and should always be posted.
This thing is STILL going?
And Mary is STILL dead.
Oink oink
Uh... saints?
Mary?
It is not "remembering" in context. Here is another use of the verb that does not imply a personal memory:
υπομνησιν λαμβανων της εν σοι ανυποκριτου πιστεως ητις ενωκησεν πρωτον εν τη μαμμη σου λωιδι και τη μητρι σου ευνικη πεπεισμαι δε οτι και εν σοι; "Calling to mind that faith which is in thee unfeigned, which also dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and in thy mother Eunice, and I am certain that in thee also." (2 Timothy 1:5; the reference is to faith of the gradnmother)εαν ελθω υπομνησω αυτου τα εργα α ποιει λογοις πονηροις; "if I come, I will advertise his works which he doth, with malicious words" (3 John 1:10, the reference is to works and words not yet known, other wise the letter itself would stir up the memory)
Change that capitol C to a small c and understand that it simply means universal and it makes sense.
It doesn't because if you heretic are a part of the Catholic Church then we are saved by works alone in heaven and not saved by works alone in heaven; Mary was assumed in the body to heaven and she was not; abortion and gay "marriage" is blessed in heaven and not blessed in heaven.
It is generally a good idea to listen to the argument presented to you and attempt to understand it before posting your angry nonsense.
If you want to discuss a particular post I will need a reference to that post.
Obviously, they don't. For example, the scripture tells us that we are not saved by faith alone (James 2:24) and tells us how the precepts of the Bible were changed by the Holy Church (Acts 15:24).
The Protestant faith is dead. Get the true faith and it will save you.
LOL.
is considered righteous
εξ εργων δικαιουται ανθρωπος και ουκ εκ πιστεως μονον (James 2:24)"is considered righteous" is a misleading translation; "δικαιουται" simply means "is saved" or "is justified". There is nothing in the text to warrant this solipsistic "is considered". The context, of course, supports the Catholic understanding, calling your faith "dead" a couple of times. If you don't understand plain scripture, maybe it is not yet time for you to attempts having opinions about it.
Not saving: opposite of living, thus giving life eternal.
Also, the word "spade" to me means spade; the word "potato" to me means potato, etc.
Riight. James called Protestant faith dead but he did not mean it. He meant what, ill with a flu?
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him unto justice. (Romans 4:3)The context of Romans 3 is that Abraham had his justification before his circumcision. Note that James does not say "not by faith alone righteousness is reputed" but simply "is saved". St. James statement is doctrinal about works vs. faith; St. Paul's is out of focus as far as faith and works is concerned, and lack of salvific quality in Jewish rituals is the focus. In another book St. Paul focuses on the nature of faith in salvation:
By faith he that is called Abraham, obeyed to go out into a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went (Hebrews 11:8)Here St. Paul is in full unison with St. James, the Holy Catholic Church and the anathemata of Trent: salvific faith is such that moved Abraham across the desert. If you don't think crossing a desert is works, go ride some camels in 120 degrees heat and come back to me.
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