Posted on 08/05/2013 10:31:02 AM PDT by Gamecock
Question:
Does the OPC use the crucifix in the church? If not, are they opposed to it?
Answer:
Thank you for your question. The answer is, so far as I know, the crucifix is not used in OPC churches, and here is why:
1.The Second Commandment (Ex. 20:4-6 and Deut. 5:8-10) forbids any picture or image of God, and that would include the Son of God, even as man. At any rate we do not know what Jesus looked like as there is no physical description of him.
2.The crucifix will always end up being an object of worship—regarded as holy. History teaches as much. The bronze serpent Moses made became an object of worship and was not destroyed till King Hezekiah did it (Numbers 21:9; 2 Kings 18:1-5). Roman Catholics have worshipped it, kissed it and held it to have mystical powers.
3.Christ did not remain on the Cross. In the Roman Church Christ is said to be resacrificed each time the Mass is celebrated. This is heresy; he died once for all—Hebrews 9:25-28.
We in the OPC have learned not to trust our idolatry prone hearts not to do the same as others have in the past. Hence, no crucifixes are used. So, yes, we are opposed to it.
Jesus, in speaking to the multitudes, gave this as an example of those determined to damage His ministry by slander.
No, I don't at all. Whatever point you are making is quite obscure.
In mine, I was just drawing a caricature of the excuse that one responder made which was that the argument Satan brings is a little bit of something is not sinful, it is not really seriously disobeying God if you have the habit under control.
BTW, we got quite away from your original topic. So let me ask, in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, what does the term Crucifix mean? is it only the image of Jesus on the Cross? or could it include just the empty Cross?
And what makes "Presbyterian" ortodox? Is the church polity the same as for, say, a PCUSA church?
Just asking.
And Jesus said to one of the malefactors? Tsk Tsk, reading your Bible and memorizing it would help, wouldn't it? (same :)
With respect, no. Wisdom tells us to beware the man of one book. It also tells us that we should beware of those of one book who don't actually read and understand that one book.
Wrong. The argument was about John being a Levite, a prophet, and to act like a Nazarite (Lk. 1:15) who could not drink even unfermented wine. The lesson on character assassination does not give any further authority for anyone today to continue to slander Him as giving them an excuse for permission to drink as much as they wanted as long as they do not get "drunk." This is really dumb because in almost every state one may not operate a motor vehicle with a blood alcohol level above .08% -- and they are constantly trying to lower it. How much does it take you to get drunk?
Now, this is real simple. Today, you can walk in any store and get a quart of 100% grape juice for two to three dollars. And I do. While in the old days I would get a nice bottle of Beaujolais to go with my filet mignon (No JTB then). So I can tell you, that the grape juice with its full sugar content and without alcohol tastes a lot better than the Beaujolais. I bought the wine because it was customary, and after a bottle, it was enough to lower both coordination, judgment, and inhibitions. The Beaujolais certainly cost more than $2-$3.
The simple part regarding wine is this:
If you want to enjoy the fruit of the vine, it has all the health benefits (resveratrol etc.) that any red wine has, and tastes better, especially chilled.
If you want to show you can rject the clear counsel of God's Word, and flaunt just a little disobedience in His face by doing something you don't have to, go ahead. But when you see your son, or daughter, or grandchild, or drinking pal brought home in a long box, you will begin to understand the stakes of the table you are playing at.
This is not about Prohibitionism, it about choice, about obeying Christ, and experiencing a few less tears in Heaven. If you get there, that is.
Christ's objection to Pharisees was not their legality, it was their phony hypocrisy, wasn't it? And you neither know how to apply the account of tableturning, nor untangle your twisting of Jn 4:7+ with Jn. 8:11.
We do not know here from Pontius Pilate. We don't know "days." We only know that he shortened the malefactor's legs to shorten their hours so they couldn't raise up to breathe. They died from pulmonary edema, congestion of the heart. It would take some other historical account to give us the confidence that it took days, rather than hours.
Are you only relying on one book here? I am not, in this matter.
Jesus died by Himself giving up his spirit to God. His body went to the grave, and His soul to Paradise to preach to the OT saints there. Jesus knew, by foreknowledge, that one of the malefactors would be there, too, with Him.
My point was only that your first statement, which seemed to dismiss Catholic teaching on the ground that its adherents were victims of lifelong propaganda did not account for all adherents. In particular it did not account for those whose study and prayer led them to conclude that the Catholic Church is where the fulness of the Chuch is to be found.
It semed that your point was that discussion was futile with the victims of lifelong propaganda.
Now your point appears to be that because some who see things differently wear funny clothes, therefore .... actually I don’t see a point. Some who disagree with me wear funny clothes. Shall I dismiss all who disagree with me because some wear funny clothes?
So, everybody is wrong but you...
You give nanny state regulations (.08) which were instituted by people trying to control behavior (MADD), and use that as some justification for your own ideas. It has nothing to do with drunk. It has EVERYTHING to do with behavior control.
I don't get drunk, so I don't know how much it would take to get me there. I like the taste of grape juice. I also enjoy a good Beaujolais, and to me it does make a steak taste better than with grape juice. That is OPINION. But, I buy wine in a box so I can have a glass or two.
You are ranting and raving like you know something everybody else has no idea about. You refuse to acknowledge clear explanations, and clear words taken directly from Scriptures. Instead, you berate all of those who oppose your ideas as being just plain "wrong". Scripture is clear. Jesus turned water into wine, UNDOUBTABLY with alcohol in it.
FRiend, do as you think God speaks to you, but quit trying to be a Pharisee. You see where that got them! The Scriptures you use from the Old Testament do not apply to the New Paradigm instituted on the cross. Jesus changed all that after He fulfilled all within the Law and the Prophets. What He did not bother to do, is pay any attention to the Pharisaical sect which put forth rules to trip men into believing they were Godly.
Paul sets that one up and explains it quite well in the Book of Romans, and here is part of his letter to those people who thought they held all the cards.
Romans 2:2 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
Why don’t you worry about your own sect and mind your own business.
You not only don't like God's whole counsel, you do not like part of it, neither do you like the reasonable laws in this country. Sounds like lawlessness to me, the kind I did myself.
Measurement experiments show that any blood alcohol produces deterioration of judgment and coordination. To be so at any level is drunk. It's like any sin. Or virginity. On a law enforcement level, it is not about behavior control, it is about the precise control of a motor vehicle.
You ought to know better, but you refuse to admit that there is no place in the Bible that you can use to flat out affirm that Jesus made, gave, or drank alcoholic wine. You can only infer by twisting the few passages that exist regarding wine. Your so-called exegesis so far is not exegesis at all, but it is reading into Scripture something that is NOT there. So please don't keep on with it, for my sake.
I hate to see what you would do behind the sacred desk, if this is your line of teaching.
Orthodox Presbyterian is a denomination that broke away from the liberal northern branch of the Presbyterian church in the early 1930s.
It is Presbyterian by polity and doctrine. That is it adheres to the Westminster Confession and the Shorter and Larger Catechisms.
Your personal opinions do not establish anything you have quoted. Your obedience to a nanny state is also clear. You are wrong about everything you have pointed out. You live in the Old Testament, and in the nanny state of today.
It is clear that you don't understand everything Jesus did, before, during, and after his crucifixion. Your misinterpretations of Old Testament Scriptures do not understand that the OT was designed to point out that man cannot live according to the Law, and that it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that we have a kinsman redeemer, a Goel. We cannot stand before God and be judged righteous. It is not possible.
But, praise God, we can be completely covered by His blood. You can't see the forest, apparently.
I have no doubt that you are sincere in your thinking. BUT, it is clearly not in line with New Testament theology. Get that beam out of your eye!
Acts 13: 16 Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: “Fellow Israelites and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! 17 The God of the people of Israel chose our ancestors; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt; with mighty power he led them out of that country; 18 for about forty years he endured their conduct[a] in the wilderness; 19 and he overthrew seven nations in Canaan, giving their land to his people as their inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years.
“After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. 21 Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled forty years. 22 After removing Saul, he made David their king. God testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse, a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’
23 “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised. 24 Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. 25 As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you suppose I am? I am not the one you are looking for. But there is one coming after me whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’
26 “Fellow children of Abraham and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. 27 The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 28 Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. 29 When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb. 30 But God raised him from the dead, 31 and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
32 “We tell you the good news: What God promised our ancestors 33 he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm:
“‘You are my son;
today I have become your father.’
34 God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,
“‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ 35 So it is also stated elsewhere:
“‘You will not let your holy one see decay.’
36 “Now when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. 37 But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay. 3
8 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. 40 Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
hahahahahahahahahahaaaaaa. You take the cake! Here's the Greek NT for ya!
Acts 13: 16 ἀναστὰς δὲ Παῦλος καὶ κατασείσας τῇ χειρὶ εἶπεν· Ἄνδρες Ἰσραηλῖται καὶ οἱ φοβούμενοι τὸν θεόν, ἀκούσατε. 17 ὁ θεὸς τοῦ λαοῦ τούτου [t]Ἰσραὴλ ἐξελέξατο τοὺς πατέρας ἡμῶν, καὶ τὸν λαὸν ὕψωσεν ἐν τῇ παροικίᾳ ἐν γῇ [u]Αἰγύπτου, καὶ μετὰ βραχίονος ὑψηλοῦ ἐξήγαγεν αὐτοὺς ἐξ αὐτῆς, 18 καί, ὡς τεσσερακονταετῆ χρόνον ἐτροποφόρησεν αὐτοὺς ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ, 19 [v]καὶ καθελὼν ἔθνη ἑπτὰ ἐν γῇ Χανάαν [w]κατεκληρονόμησεν τὴν γῆν αὐτῶν 20 [x]ὡς ἔτεσι τετρακοσίοις καὶ πεντήκοντα. καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ἔδωκεν κριτὰς ἕως Σαμουὴλ [y]τοῦ προφήτου. 21 κἀκεῖθεν ᾐτήσαντο βασιλέα, καὶ ἔδωκεν αὐτοῖς ὁ θεὸς τὸν Σαοὺλ υἱὸν Κίς, ἄνδρα ἐκ φυλῆς Βενιαμίν, ἔτη τεσσεράκοντα· 22 καὶ μεταστήσας αὐτὸν ἤγειρεν [z]τὸν Δαυὶδ αὐτοῖς εἰς βασιλέα, ᾧ καὶ εἶπεν μαρτυρήσας· Εὗρον Δαυὶδ τὸν τοῦ Ἰεσσαί, ἄνδρα κατὰ τὴν καρδίαν μου, ὃς ποιήσει πάντα τὰ θελήματά μου. 23 τούτου ὁ θεὸς ἀπὸ τοῦ σπέρματος κατ’ ἐπαγγελίαν ἤγαγεν τῷ Ἰσραὴλ [aa]σωτῆρα Ἰησοῦν, 24 προκηρύξαντος Ἰωάννου πρὸ προσώπου τῆς εἰσόδου αὐτοῦ βάπτισμα μετανοίας [ab]παντὶ τῷ λαῷ Ἰσραήλ. 25 ὡς δὲ ἐπλήρου [ac]Ἰωάννης τὸν δρόμον, ἔλεγεν· [ad]Τί ἐμὲ ὑπονοεῖτε εἶναι; οὐκ εἰμὶ ἐγώ· ἀλλ’ ἰδοὺ ἔρχεται μετ’ ἐμὲ οὗ οὐκ εἰμὶ ἄξιος τὸ ὑπόδημα τῶν ποδῶν λῦσαι.
26 Ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί, υἱοὶ γένους Ἀβραὰμ καὶ οἱ ἐν ὑμῖν φοβούμενοι τὸν θεόν, [ae]ἡμῖν ὁ λόγος τῆς σωτηρίας ταύτης [af]ἐξαπεστάλη. 27 οἱ γὰρ κατοικοῦντες ἐν Ἰερουσαλὴμ καὶ οἱ ἄρχοντες αὐτῶν τοῦτον ἀγνοήσαντες καὶ τὰς φωνὰς τῶν προφητῶν τὰς κατὰ πᾶν σάββατον ἀναγινωσκομένας κρίναντες ἐπλήρωσαν, 28 καὶ μηδεμίαν αἰτίαν θανάτου εὑρόντες ᾐτήσαντο Πιλᾶτον ἀναιρεθῆναι αὐτόν· 29 ὡς δὲ ἐτέλεσαν πάντα τὰ περὶ αὐτοῦ γεγραμμένα, καθελόντες ἀπὸ τοῦ ξύλου ἔθηκαν εἰς μνημεῖον. 30 ὁ δὲ θεὸς ἤγειρεν αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν· 31 ὃς ὤφθη ἐπὶ ἡμέρας πλείους τοῖς συναναβᾶσιν αὐτῷ ἀπὸ τῆς Γαλιλαίας εἰς Ἰερουσαλήμ, οἵτινες [ag]νῦν εἰσὶ μάρτυρες αὐτοῦ πρὸς τὸν λαόν. 32 καὶ ἡμεῖς ὑμᾶς εὐαγγελιζόμεθα τὴν πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας ἐπαγγελίαν γενομένην 33 ὅτι ταύτην ὁ θεὸς ἐκπεπλήρωκεν τοῖς τέκνοις [ah]ἡμῶν ἀναστήσας Ἰησοῦν, ὡς καὶ ἐν τῷ [ai]ψαλμῷ γέγραπται τῷ δευτέρῳ· Υἱός μου εἶ σύ, ἐγὼ σήμερον γεγέννηκά σε. 34 ὅτι δὲ ἀνέστησεν αὐτὸν ἐκ νεκρῶν μηκέτι μέλλοντα ὑποστρέφειν εἰς διαφθοράν, οὕτως εἴρηκεν ὅτι Δώσω ὑμῖν τὰ ὅσια Δαυὶδ τὰ πιστά. 35 [aj]διότι καὶ ἐν ἑτέρῳ λέγει· Οὐ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν· 36 Δαυὶδ μὲν γὰρ ἰδίᾳ γενεᾷ ὑπηρετήσας τῇ τοῦ θεοῦ βουλῇ ἐκοιμήθη καὶ προσετέθη πρὸς τοὺς πατέρας αὐτοῦ καὶ εἶδεν διαφθοράν, 37 ὃν δὲ ὁ θεὸς ἤγειρεν οὐκ εἶδεν διαφθοράν. 38 γνωστὸν οὖν ἔστω ὑμῖν, ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί, ὅτι διὰ τούτου ὑμῖν ἄφεσις ἁμαρτιῶν καταγγέλλεται, καὶ ἀπὸ πάντων ὧν οὐκ ἠδυνήθητε [ak]ἐν νόμῳ Μωϋσέως δικαιωθῆναι 39 ἐν τούτῳ πᾶς ὁ πιστεύων δικαιοῦται. 40 βλέπετε οὖν μὴ [al]ἐπέλθῃ τὸ εἰρημένον ἐν τοῖς προφήταις· 41 Ἴδετε, οἱ καταφρονηταί, καὶ θαυμάσατε καὶ ἀφανίσθητε, ὅτι ἔργον [am]ἐργάζομαι ἐγὼ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις ὑμῶν, [an]ἔργον ὃ οὐ μὴ πιστεύσητε ἐάν τις ἐκδιηγῆται ὑμῖν.
42 Ἐξιόντων δὲ [ao]αὐτῶν [ap]παρεκάλουν εἰς τὸ μεταξὺ σάββατον λαληθῆναι αὐτοῖς τὰ ῥήματα [aq]ταῦτα. 43 λυθείσης δὲ τῆς συναγωγῆς ἠκολούθησαν πολλοὶ τῶν Ἰουδαίων καὶ τῶν σεβομένων προσηλύτων τῷ Παύλῳ καὶ τῷ Βαρναβᾷ, οἵτινες προσλαλοῦντες [ar]αὐτοῖς ἔπειθον· αὐτοὺς [as]προσμένειν τῇ χάριτι τοῦ θεοῦ.
I saw a goat or two on Leno last night.
I did NOT see you!
PBBbbbt!
who is the one that doesn’t accept that??
And yet...
...the written words of Yeshua are...
John 6:28-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
Sorry for your trouble. I have it in the Trinitarian Textus Receptus (Scriveners), Nestle-Aland (1934), and Pierpont& Robinson’s Byzantine/Majority Textform. No need to duplicate — takes too much bandwidth
Like in reply #215?
Thanks. I know that we have one here. Got to visit with the pastor back a few years ago — really nice guy, and his church permitted a report from The Gideons International local camp.
If you take the following comment to be pejorative, it is not meant so. It is more that of a student who has learned from the best; not as condemning criticism.
I think you meant YEAR here.
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