Where Does the Bible Say We Should Pray to Dead Saints?

catholic-convert ^ | July 11, 2012 | Steve Ray

[boatbums]

“what the Bible said concerning the nature of Almighty God” What edition did they cite?

Here's a serious question...do you think this is all a big game???

[JCBreckenridge]

I asked a question.

What edition of the bible did they cite?

[Colofornian]

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” [JCBreckrenridge, citing Matt. 16:18]

Question:
What then do we do with the apostle Paul?
* "I was in no way inferior to these [so-called] 'superapostles'" (Paul, 2 Cor. 12:11);
* Paul rebuked Peter (Gal. 2:11-21);
* he claimed to be on the same level as Peter (Gal. 2:8);
* he wrote half of the NT -- compared to Peter's two epistles
* BOTH Peter & John were sent by the apostles on a mission (Acts 8:4-13)
* Peter wasn't "THE pastor of the church but only a 'fellow presbyter [elder]' (1 Peter 5:1-2)." (Rhodes & Geisler, p. 113)
* "In view of the New Testament titles used of Peter, it is clear that he would never have accepted the terms used of the Roman Catholic Pope today: 'Holy Father' (cf. Matt. 23:9) or 'Supreme Pontiff' and "Vicar of Christ.'" (Rhodes & Geisler, p. 193)

Oh...+ The Holy Spirit is our Vicar (John 14:16,26; 16:13-14).

************************

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” [JCBreckrenridge, citing Matt. 28:18-20]

Yes, THE Absolute Authority of Jesus Christ ["ALL authority has been given unto me..." (Matt. 28:18); cf. Jude 25; Rev. 12:10; 2:27]

I don't see anywhere where Christ has 90% authority...and given men have 10%. I don't see from Matt. 28:20 ("lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age") -- where His omnipresence leaves Him stuck at the right Hand of God...as some might be tempted to imply.

And derived authority is distinct to a degree re: delegated authority. Since the Lord is the Boss; and the Boss is still present; and the Boss is the "Head" of the Body, He didn't simply delegate authority to men & then go on vacation for 2,000 years!

He has [present tense] ALL authority [see verses above].

[I encourage Catholics to stop playing down what authority is in His current hands -- and stop playing up what authority is in a single man who automatically has to live in the same place in Europe!]

[JCBreckenridge]

“What then do we do with the apostle Paul?”

Why not follow what he himself says?

“I am the least of the Apostles and unworthy to be called one.”

“Rhodes & Geisler”

So, the Prophets Rhodes and Geisler have spoken. All must obey.

“And derived authority is distinct to a degree re: delegated authority”

Oddly enough, such a statement appears nowhere in scripture. Is this yet another protestant interpolation?

[boatbums]

Is it my use of the word "Bible" that perplexes you? Would the term "Holy Scripture" make better sense? I've been reading an interesting document about the Council of Nicea (http://www.christian-history.org/council-of-nicea.html#sthash.PzvUIHuG.dpbs). The attendees quoted from some of the earliest church fathers (i.e., Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Athenagoras, Origen and Tertulian) as they quoted from the books that make up the Bible such as the Gospel according to Matthew, specfically Matthew 28:19 (the baptismal formula) and even the Old Testament books such as Proverbs 8:22 in proving the doctrine of the Trinity. If your question was indeed serious, then the Scriptures these men utilized were the Greek version copies, since the council was conducted with Greek speakers, primarily. These Scriptures are the EXACT same ones that were used to make many of the English translations we have today in our Bibles.

I noticed that you ask a lot of leading questions (an attorney?) but seldom answer those asked of you. Cynical Bear asked where you thought the Council of Nicea got the idea about the Trinity - no answer.

I asked you much earlier if I needed to repost the link that shows Martin Luther's German translation of the Bible excluded NONE of the books Catholics consider "Scripture". Since you persist in stating Luther DID remove books, I asked if you needed me to resend you that link so that you won't keep making that same error - no answer.

I hope you understand why one would think this forum appears to be a game of some sort to some. It is not for me. I know souls may be at stake - that's how serious I see it.

[dadfly]

Lord, Your will be done, but, with all things possible in You, i add my small voice to the prayers asking that you allow this little one more time on earth, to be with his brethern. that this child be strenghtened and comforted with Your presence. through You i pray for this, Amen.

[johngrace]

Hi Kathy- I was pinged by Salvation. I just did a full Chaplet for the child. I felt anointed while prayering. So I believe a full decent healing. Praise Jesus!

[johngrace]

Hi xzins-I was pinged by Salvation. I just did a full Chaplet for the child. I felt anointed while prayering. So I believe a full decent healing. Praise Jesus!

[JCBreckenridge]

“These Scriptures are the EXACT same ones that were used to make many of the English translations we have today in our Bibles.”

Depends entirely on which bible and which edition you are talking about. The ones primarily used by Protestants do not use the Greek documents available to the Church fathers in the time of Nicaea. They tend to use manuscripts dating anywhere from 7 to 9 centuries after.

The reason I ask the question is this. We do not at present possess the texts that they would have consulted in this period of time, 320 AD. We cannot say with definitive proof that the scriptures extant, Greek or otherwise are the same as the ones used by the Council.

Which raises the question. If, in fact, it is true that our oldest scriptural manuscripts do not go back that far - should we really be relying on scripture or the Councils to determine what the Apostles believed?

This is my point - authority comes from the Apostles themselves, not from Scripture to the Apostles. The bishops at Nicaea were and are the successors of the Apostles and thus, have the authority to interpret sacred scripture.

Which raises a question - where does the authority to determine doctrine come from - scripture or the magisterium?

“Cynical Bear asked where you thought the Council of Nicea got the idea about the Trinity”

Cynical bear needs to answer some questions if he wants answers to his. He has never answered any of my questions, so I do not feel compelled to answer his.

What I notice is that protestants don’t answer questions and then get pouty when their questions are not answered.

In short - want an answer, answer my questions too.

[Kathy in Alaska]

Thank you. That little one can use every bit of help that can be provided, every prayer made.

[E.G.C.]

BTTT

[Tax-chick]

Good morning, FRiend xzins. Calling on our loving and all-powerful God to touch your grandson and you today!

Cy

[aimee5291]

to xzins

prayers

[verga]

It has to be ‘outside’ of space, since space is part of creation, and will be destroyed at the end of the millenium. (what is outside of space? only Yehova knows)

Actually editor is very close. It is actually outside of space and time.

God is both omnipotent (all powerful), and omnipresent. Many people make the mistake of believing that this is limited to "God is everywhere", but it also means that He is also "Everywhen"

I do expect the theologically obtuse among you to misunderstand and / or say something completely stupid.

Ready go.....

[stonehouse01]

“..who could possibly be more righteous than those in heaven already? ...”

Bravo - some of the best logic based on scripture that I’ve heard yet about why it’s fine to ask for the saints’ intercession!! Beautiful.

To All: consider: Jeremiah Chapter Fifteen, Verse 1:

Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be before these people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

The Lord told Jeremiah that even if Moses and Samuel (departed saints who are alive in God) were standing in front of him, (to change his mind) it wouldn’t change his mind because the Jews were beyond it at this point in history.

Clearly the way this is written the LORD already assumes there is no problem in Jeremiah asking Moses and Samuel to stand before him to try to intercede for Israel. In fact, the Lord expects that Jeremiah will try this as a matter of course. He is warning that it wouldn’t work, not because they are departed, but because Israel’s transgressions were too far gone.

This verse clearly shows that there is nothing wrong with Jeremiah attempting to procure Samuel and Moses’ intercession, the Lord himself gives this permission to Jeremiah at the outset. There is NOTHING wrong with the process of Jeremiah asking for this intercession - it doesn’t have the proper result because Israel had turned too far away from the Lord at that time.

[Elsie]

But what is that picture from?

WHAT!!!???

You are hereby sentenced to an indeterminant amount of time in the BASEMENT of Purgatory until you learn sufficiently of Q - Master and Ruler of the Star Trek universe!

Then; after proper humility has been taught to you; mere human; then, and ONLY then, can you begin to work your way up!

[Oratam]

There are no ‘dead’ saints.

[Rashputin]

You and your grandson were now on my prayer list.

[Elsie]

The only folks who consider themselves Christian who do not are the Mormons and the Jehovah’s Witness. Why? Because both of them reject the fact that Jesus is divine.

Surely NOT!

[Elsie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.....

More ‘scripture’ to make yer point - but OUR saints have already made it to Heaven and are interceding; night - day - 24 - 7 - 365 for us poor saps who ain’t there yet!

—CatholicDude(When would be a good time... whoops!)