Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: JCBreckenridge; metmom; All
“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” [JCBreckrenridge, citing Matt. 16:18]

Question:
What then do we do with the apostle Paul?
* "I was in no way inferior to these [so-called] 'superapostles'" (Paul, 2 Cor. 12:11);
* Paul rebuked Peter (Gal. 2:11-21);
* he claimed to be on the same level as Peter (Gal. 2:8);
* he wrote half of the NT -- compared to Peter's two epistles
* BOTH Peter & John were sent by the apostles on a mission (Acts 8:4-13)
* Peter wasn't "THE pastor of the church but only a 'fellow presbyter [elder]' (1 Peter 5:1-2)." (Rhodes & Geisler, p. 113)
* "In view of the New Testament titles used of Peter, it is clear that he would never have accepted the terms used of the Roman Catholic Pope today: 'Holy Father' (cf. Matt. 23:9) or 'Supreme Pontiff' and "Vicar of Christ.'" (Rhodes & Geisler, p. 193)

Oh...+ The Holy Spirit is our Vicar (John 14:16,26; 16:13-14).

************************

“All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” [JCBreckrenridge, citing Matt. 28:18-20]

Yes, THE Absolute Authority of Jesus Christ ["ALL authority has been given unto me..." (Matt. 28:18); cf. Jude 25; Rev. 12:10; 2:27]

I don't see anywhere where Christ has 90% authority...and given men have 10%. I don't see from Matt. 28:20 ("lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the age") -- where His omnipresence leaves Him stuck at the right Hand of God...as some might be tempted to imply.

And derived authority is distinct to a degree re: delegated authority. Since the Lord is the Boss; and the Boss is still present; and the Boss is the "Head" of the Body, He didn't simply delegate authority to men & then go on vacation for 2,000 years!

He has [present tense] ALL authority [see verses above].

[I encourage Catholics to stop playing down what authority is in His current hands -- and stop playing up what authority is in a single man who automatically has to live in the same place in Europe!]

943 posted on 07/16/2013 11:20:16 PM PDT by Colofornian
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 926 | View Replies ]


To: Colofornian

“What then do we do with the apostle Paul?”

Why not follow what he himself says?

“I am the least of the Apostles and unworthy to be called one.”

“Rhodes & Geisler”

So, the Prophets Rhodes and Geisler have spoken. All must obey.

“And derived authority is distinct to a degree re: delegated authority”

Oddly enough, such a statement appears nowhere in scripture. Is this yet another protestant interpolation?


944 posted on 07/16/2013 11:34:38 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge ("we are pilgrims in an unholy land")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 943 | View Replies ]

To: Colofornian

The early Church Fathers are not in alignment with what you claim. Here is SOME of what they say:

“Peter, who is called ‘the rock on which the church should be built,’ who also obtained ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven...’” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against the Heretics, 22 (c. A.D. 200).

“And Peter, on whom the Church of Christ is built, against which the gates of hell shall not prevail...” Origen, Commentary on John, 5:3 (A.D. 232).

“By this Spirit Peter spake that blessed word, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ By this Spirit the rock of the Church was established.” Hippolytus, Discourse on the Holy Theophany, 9 (ante A.D. 235).

“’...thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church’ ... It is on him that he builds the Church, and to him that he entrusts the sheep to feed. And although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single Chair, thus establishing by his own authority the source and hallmark of the (Church’s) oneness...If a man does not fast to this oneness of Peter, does he still imagine that he still holds the faith. If he deserts the Chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, has he still confidence that he is in the Church?” Cyprian, De Unitate Ecclesiae (Primacy text), 4 (A.D. 251).

“...folly of (Pope) Stephen, that he who boasts of the place of the episcopate, and contends that he holds the succession from Peter, on whom the foundation of the Church were laid...” Firmilian, Epistle To Cyprian, Epistle 75(74):17(A.D. 256).

“...Peter, that strongest and greatest of all the apostles, and the one who on account of his virtue was the speaker for all the others...” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 2:14 (A.D. 325).

“And Peter,on whom the Church of Christ is built, ‘against which the gates of hell shall not prevail’” Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, 6:25 (A.D. 325).

“...the chief of the disciples...the Lord accepted him, set him up as the foundation, called him the rock and structure of the church.” Aphraates, De Paenitentibus Homily 7:15 (A.D. 337).

“Peter, the foremost of the Apostles, and Chief Herald of the Church...” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures,1 1:3 (A.D. 350).

“[B]lessed Simon, who after his confession of the mystery was set to be the foundation-stone of the Church, and received the keys of the kingdom...” Hilary de Poiters, On the Trinity, 6:20(A.D. 359).

“[F]or the good of unity blessed Peter, for whom it would have been enough if after his denial he had obtained pardon only, deserved to be placed before all the apostles, and alone received the keys of the kingdom of heaven, to be communicated to the rest.” Optatus of Milevis, De Schismate Donatistorum, 7:3(A.D. 370).

“[T]he Lord spoke to Peter a little earlier; he spoke to one, that from one he might found unity, soon delivering the same to all.” Pacian, To Sympronianus, Epistle 3:2 (AD 372).

“Simon, My follower, I have made you the foundation of the Holy Church. I betimes called you Peter (Kepha), because you will support all its buildings. You are the inspector of those who will build on earth a Church for me...I have given you the keys of my kingdom. Behold, have given you authority over all my treasures.” Ephraim, Homily 4:1, (A.D. 373).

“[T]he first of the apostles, the solid rock on which the Church was built.” Epiphanius, In Ancorato, 9:6 (A.D. 374).

“Peter upon which rock the Lord promised that he would build his church.” Basil, In Isaias, 2:66 (A.D. 375).

“As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built!” Jerome, To Pope Damasus, Epistle 15 (A.D. 375).

And, regarding Paul:

”It was right indeed that he (Paul) should be anxious to see Peter; for he was the first among the apostles, and was entrusted by the Savior with the care of the churches.” Ambrosiaster, Commentary on Galatians, PL 17:344 (A.D. 384).

Also, consider what Origen says here about the Church, which is exactly what is said in the Bible itself:

“We are not to give heed to those who say, Behold here is Christ, but show him not in the Church, which is filled with brightness from the East even unto the West; which is filled with true light; is the ‘PILLAR AND GROUND OF TRUTH’; in which, as a whole, is the whole advent of the Son of Man, who saith to all men throughout the universe, ‘Behold, I am with you all the days of life even unto the consumption of the world.’” Origen, Commentary on Matthew, Tract 30 (A.D. 244).


967 posted on 07/17/2013 5:50:58 AM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 943 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson