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“..who could possibly be more righteous than those in heaven already? ...”

Bravo - some of the best logic based on scripture that I’ve heard yet about why it’s fine to ask for the saints’ intercession!! Beautiful.

To All: consider: Jeremiah Chapter Fifteen, Verse 1:

Then said the LORD unto me, Though Moses and Samuel stood before me, yet my mind could not be before these people: cast them out of my sight, and let them go forth.

The Lord told Jeremiah that even if Moses and Samuel (departed saints who are alive in God) were standing in front of him, (to change his mind) it wouldn’t change his mind because the Jews were beyond it at this point in history.

Clearly the way this is written the LORD already assumes there is no problem in Jeremiah asking Moses and Samuel to stand before him to try to intercede for Israel. In fact, the Lord expects that Jeremiah will try this as a matter of course. He is warning that it wouldn’t work, not because they are departed, but because Israel’s transgressions were too far gone.

This verse clearly shows that there is nothing wrong with Jeremiah attempting to procure Samuel and Moses’ intercession, the Lord himself gives this permission to Jeremiah at the outset. There is NOTHING wrong with the process of Jeremiah asking for this intercession - it doesn’t have the proper result because Israel had turned too far away from the Lord at that time.

Thanks, and thanks for sharing that passage. I’d never considered that before, and it nicely closes the “circle” (so to speak). That is to say, clearly we have from Scripture:

- the prayers of the righteous availeth much (Jas 5:16)

And

- The fact that God Himself doesn’t reject the notion of Moses and Samuel coming to Him in prayer for His people (cf Jer 15:1) even though they are already “saints that have departed”

So the only thing one can “argue” at this point is as I’ve said all along: Whether or not it’s possible for those in heaven to “hear” our prayers for intercession.

I leave that to the reader to decide for himself as these debates can be toxic for me after a while so I have no desire to engage them fully.

I would submit though, for anyone who doesn’t have a pre-determined agenda against the Church, I don’t think it’s that objectionable at all to believe those in heaven can indeed hear our cries for help. After all, it seems quite reasonable to me that at least our departed loved ones will still care for us even in heaven. That is, I doubt they stop caring about us just because they are “there”.

But I guess that’s what some believe. I guess some believe their departed loved ones don’t care about them anymore enough to at least hear a prayer from their loved ones here on earth. Or I guess they believe in some “God” that would be so cruel as to prevent them from hearing what their loved ones on earth would want to share with them.

That’s certainly not my view of what God, or heaven could ever be like. And I don’t care if someone objects with the foolishly utilized “Scripturally based” (Scripturally based in their opinion, more like taken out of context) argument of ,”the wisdom of man is foolishness to God” and/or “you have to out on the mind of Christ, and discard the carnal mind” which such people use as justification to not use the brain God GAVE them ( hmm, i wonder what God says about not using one’s talents again...) to reach reasonable conclusions.

No sir. I have no desire to converse with such willfully obtuse children anymore. I simply do not have the time ( or patience, obviously ).

So thank you again, for both your compliment and assistance. It (your contribution) surely will be a help to those with an open mind and/or heart (as Paisan seems to be).

To the rest, my advice is to not waste your precious time.