The Big Discovery [by David, former Presbyterian]

Journeyof ImperfectSaint.blogspot.com ^ | October 4, 2009 | David

[Salvation]

Sunday, October 4, 2009

The Big Discovery

        I made some good friends outside my church and found out that they were all Catholics.  Now, I did not know much about Catholicism at the time.  By the way, the Mass did seem somewhat mysterious to me externally.  In fact, what little I had heard from other church members was all negative.  There was a Mrs. J at my church, who had just retired from her missionary post in China.  She was such a kind and endearing soul to all.  One day she got back from visiting someone at a hospital and looked extremely sad and disturbed.  It turned out that when she got to the hospital room, she saw that a Catholic priest was already there with the patient.  Now the question was if the patient would ever get to heaven. 

 

        Nevertheless, my Catholic friends all looked quite normal and happy.  Then could the Catholic Church, the largest church in the the world, be in error?  It so happened that at that time I was also beginning to question my Protestant faith.  The fact that there were numerous different denominations around the world bothered me.  Also, as a Protestant, whether you're a minister or lay person, you are free to marry and divorce any number of times.  It's hard to see that Jesus would be happy with these two facts.  Since I am the kind of person who always likes to find the answer to any question that's important, I decided to look into Catholicism.

 

        I made up my mind not to talk to anyone about my investigation.  I was single then and had a lot of free time to myself.  The local public library housed an excellent collection of books on Catholicism, so I started borrowing books on the subject.  I read every weekend, even taking notes as I read.  The went on for over a year.  I read all those books that viciously attack the Catholic Church too, but somehow they did not affect me much because I sensed that these attacks could not have been prompted by the Holy Spirit.  The books that really helped me were the ones on early Church history.  I could see that the continuity was there and the beliefs and practices of the early Church had been preserved to this day in the Catholic Church.  The only conclusion I could come to was that the Catholic Church was indeed the church Jesus had come and established.  Like Christ himself, the Church, being his body, must be accepted (or rejected) totally, with no middle ground. 

 

        Here's some advice for those who seek the truth.  Your chances of success will greatly improve if, first, you start out with a completely open mind and secondly, go to the source(s) directly to get the facts.  Many who misunderstand the Catholic Church today have already made up their mind that the Church is wrong, thus never bothering to pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find out what the Church really teaches.  This is being close-minded. 

[boatbums]

But it's so much easier to dismiss a former Catholic's position if you can paint it as being the result of emotional failure. It's an attempt to kill two birds with one stone. It attempts to discredit the message and the messenger.

And it helps explain why many here absolutely refuse to even read an article - no matter the subject matter - if it was written by a person who claims to be a former Roman Catholic. No amount of educational, theological and experiential knowledge is sufficient so long as the author has left "THE" Church and unashamedly states why it was the right decision. But we are regaled frequently by threads with claims of "former" Protestants who "cross the Tiber" and become Roman Catholics and their credentials are considered sterling based simply upon the fact that they "came home". There certainly does seem to be a double standard and it exposes, as I said earlier, the real insecurity some have over what they believe because they are not all that sure WHY they believe it. At some point, "because that's what we believe", doesn't cut it anymore and that is when the Holy Spirit can start to work. We are living proof that He does!

[Natural Law]

"If it is not an issue of "ownership", then why the outrage and guffaws whenever a non-Catholic Christian uses the words and thoughts of some of those ECFs?"

It is not an ownership issue it is an integrity issue. When quotes carefully selected to corroborate a premise while ignoring writings by the very same authors that substantiate Catholic doctrines it is an exercise in sophistry. Not just Catholics, but anyone interested in truth objects.

If you step back from the passion of the argument and look at arguments based upon the balance of their substantiation and the use of euphemisms you will begin to recognize sophistry. That is a valuable skill set when living in a society that is highly manipulated by advertisers and political machinery.

Peace be with you

[MarkBsnr]

No amount of educational, theological and experiential knowledge is sufficient so long as the author has left "THE" Church and unashamedly states why it was the right decision.

As we frequently find out, usually well after the fact, there are ulterior motives to leaving the Church, rarely theological, if ever. Your own testimonies are very illustrative.

THE" Church and unashamedly states why it was the right decision. But we are regaled frequently by threads with claims of "former" Protestants who "cross the Tiber" and become Roman Catholics and their credentials are considered sterling based simply upon the fact that they "came home".

Making the decision to return to God, following the example of the Prodigal Son, or the Roman centurion, is to be celebrated. Not sneered at.

There certainly does seem to be a double standard and it exposes, as I said earlier, the real insecurity some have over what they believe because they are not all that sure WHY they believe it.

We are called to believe in Him.

John 6: 26 Jesus answered them, and said: Amen, amen I say to you, you seek me, not because you have seen miracles, but because you did eat of the loaves, and were filled. 27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that which endureth unto life everlasting, which the Son of man will give you. For him hath God, the Father, sealed. 28 They said therefore unto him: What shall we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered, and said to them: This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he hath sent. 30 They said therefore to him: What sign therefore dost thou shew, that we may see, and may believe thee? What dost thou work? 31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert, as it is written: He gave them bread from heaven to eat. 32 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say to you; Moses gave you not bread from heaven, but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is that which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life to the world. 34 They said therefore unto him: Lord, give us always this bread.

35 And Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger: and he that believeth in me shall never thirst. 36 But I said unto you, that you also have seen me, and you believe not. 37 All that the Father giveth to me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me, I will not cast out. 38 Because I came down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 Now this is the will of the Father who sent me: that of all that he hath given me, I should lose nothing; but should raise it up again in the last day. 40 And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son, and believeth in him, may have life everlasting, and I will raise him up in the last day. <> 41 The Jews therefore murmured at him, because he had said: I am the living bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said: Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How then saith he, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered, and said to them: Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up in the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father; but he who is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Amen, amen I say unto you: He that believeth in me, hath everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the desert, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven; that if any man eat of it, he may not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you. 54 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

59 These things he said, teaching in the synagogue, in Capharnaum.

60 Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? 61 But Jesus, knowing in himself, that his disciples murmured at this, said to them: Doth this scandalize you? 62 If then you shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him. 65 And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father.

66 After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? 68 And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God. 70 Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? 71 Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve.

At some point, "because that's what we believe", doesn't cut it anymore and that is when the Holy Spirit can start to work. We are living proof that He does!

Matthew 7: 16 By their fruits you shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit, and the evil tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can an evil tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit, shall be cut down, and shall be cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits you shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

Those who depart from God will find God departs from them.

[Cronos]

it hard to have a discussion with anyone who rejects the Trinity.

Exactly -- that person is no Protestant. I will not tarnish Protestants by calling such a person as that.

[Cronos]

Utter rot. The sadness of leaving God affects people to say such rot.

I live in Warsaw and we have quite a few Ukrainian Catholics -- just to give you a much-needed geography lesson, Ukraine is next-door -- and they get along pretty well.

Your posts are bad fiction, metmom....

[Cronos]

Utter rot. The sadness of leaving God affects people to say such rot.

I live in Warsaw and we have quite a few Ukrainian Catholics -- just to give you a much-needed geography lesson, Ukraine is next-door -- and they get along pretty well.

Your posts are bad fiction, metmom....

[Cronos]

As usual, just like the posts from the Bible — post the whole truth, not snippets. Snippets leads to incorrect conclusions as in your posts

[daniel1212]

As usual, though doth protest too much, and are simply evidencing the typical knee-jerk reaction to anything that impugns the object of your affection, while in reality, the snippets, “with links for more,” should not lead to any conclusion than what is carefully accurately stated, that “they are in full communion but that there are issues, mainly due to historical issues between them and Orthodox churches,” and which is actually corrective of a false impression.

Of course, if the reader will not actually read through what the excerpts (which are partly due to copyright concerns, as well as brevity), and the rest of the linked material say, which some RCs have confessed they do not, then wrong conclusions are possible, but that it their fault.

[Titanites]

You are working hard to to utterly absolve Rome from condemning souls to Hell

Rome is a city and I have no power to absolve a city. But you are working hard to utterly condemn the Catholic Church. Best of luck with that.

[metmom]

Utter rot. The sadness of leaving God affects people to say such rot.

I live in Warsaw and we have quite a few Ukrainian Catholics -- just to give you a much-needed geography lesson, Ukraine is next-door -- and they get along pretty well.

Your posts are bad fiction, metmom....

Not so. The best you can say is that your experience is not mine.

What happened to me did not happen in Warsaw, so that proves nothing except that you have met other people who think differently than the ones I know.

It certainly does not disprove what I said.

[Titanites]

You can't tell me what others said to me isn't true because you weren't there to witness and hear the conversations. You can't pass judgment on their veracity.

You claimed "The Roman Catholics don't consider Ukrainian Catholics quite good enough and the Ukrainian Catholics know it." Now, it comes down to rumor and you having no evidence to back up your claim. Again.

The only options you have is to tell me I'm lying, which you just did here, or to tell me that that is not what you experienced. But you have no basis for telling me what I experienced is not true.

I said what you claimed is not true and I backed it up with evidence, which is more than can be said for you.

Again, the evidence makes the RCC look bad, so the typical recourse is to attack the integrity of the person relating the information.

What evidence. You have presented none, only rumor. Asking for evidence instead of rumor is now twisted into attacking the person.

Right there it tells me I hit a nerve.

You haven't hit a nerve. You have made a claim with no evidence.

Another thing you seem to be incapable of understanding is the distinction between official church position and the thinking of the grassroots lay Catholics.

Interesting. I'm actually a "grassroots" lay Catholic, which is something you can't claim. I know of no lay Catholics who don't think of the Ukrainians as real Catholics. And as I've stated, there are lay Catholics on FR who regularly attend Eastern Catholic liturgies.

My comment was about the PEOPLE in the Catholic church, not the technical position of the *Church*.

The Catholic Church is made up of people. I've posted evidence you have not.

The Roman Catholic laity does not consider Ukrainian Catholics entirely legit.

I'm Catholic laity and I consider them legit, as do others on FR.

They look down their noses at them and the Ukrainian Catholics are well aware of the spiritual snobbery of the Roman Catholics as being in the REAL TRUE Church.

There are 22 Catholic Churches, including the Ukrainian liturgy and all are equally Catholic.

All you have is rumor.

[Titanites]

Your posts are bad fiction, metmom....

Well said.

[Titanites]

“they are in full communion but that there are issues, mainly due to historical issues between them and Orthodox churches,” and which is actually corrective of a false impression.

That false impression being that "Roman Catholics didn’t consider them [Ukrainian Greek Catholics] *real* Catholics.

[Iscool]

Exactly -- that person is no Protestant. I will not tarnish Protestants by calling such a person as that.

Well good...We finally agree on something...

[Titanites]

I'll give you the Elizabeth Warren ancestory alert now. Don't be surprised by the lame "I'm part Cherokee Ukrainian" claim.

[Iscool]

The priest who refuses to remit someone's sins does in effect, condemn them to hell. Just because they leave God to do the dirty work, if they really believe that the the Church has the power to bind a man's sins to him or remit them, then they are the ones who are making the executive decision. That makes them responsible.

They get around this by claiming that the priest turns into Jesus during this operation...

They don't speak too loudly when mentioning this since they know they will be laughed into embarrassment by those of us who actually study the scriptures...

But they do get away with this in the presence of gullible Catholics...

When they forgive, it is Jesus forgiving...When they condemn, it is Jesus condemning...

[Cronos]

Yes, I call a Moslem a moslem, not a Protestant.

[Cronos]

Not really — I live in the place where the treaty of Brest happened, I know Ukrainians, I’ve travelled in western Ukraine. Catholics whether Eastern or Western are on-par. Anyone who is from a Catholic family with Eastern Catholics in it would know that intermarriage, inter-relations were normal and your post about “not considering the other legit” is bad fiction.

[Cronos]

The lies people like Elizabeth Warren tell are incredible. They hate their past so much they will use any lies to thrash it — white “guilt” etc. etc.

[Cronos]

Wow, metmom, remember the Trinity is not God in modes....