Posted on 09/02/2011 9:07:47 AM PDT by marshmallow
Minneapolis, Minnesota (CNN) –Prior to 2006, few people even knew that then-Minnesota state legislator Keith Ellison was a Muslim. Because of his English name, he said, no one thought to ask.
But five years ago, when he ran for a seat in the United States House of Representatives - a race he would go on to win - word of his religious affiliation began to spread.
“When I started running for Congress it actually took me by surprise that so many people were fascinated with me being the first Muslim in Congress,” said Ellison, a Democrat now serving his third term in the House.
“But someone said to me, ‘Look Keith, think of a person of Japanese origin running for Congress six years after Pearl Harbor–this might be a news story.’”
Though Ellison's status as the first Muslim elected to Congress is widely known, fewer are aware that he was born into a Catholic family in Detroit and was brought up attending Catholic schools.
But he said he was never comfortable with that faith.
“I just felt it was ritual and dogma,” Ellison said. “Of course, that’s not the reality of Catholicism, but it’s the reality I lived. So I just kind of lost interest and stopped going to Mass unless I was required to.”
It wasn’t until he was a student at Wayne State University in Detroit when Ellison began, “looking for other things.”
(Excerpt) Read more at religion.blogs.cnn.com ...
Did I ever tell you about my fantasy of constructing a “Madonna and Child” out of plumbing and installing it in a half-buried bath tub — you know, on end, in my yard?
BWHAHAHA!! OKAY, you made me laugh first! Thanks, I needed that!
I have no idea.
Indeed!
Okay, I’ll get up and hobble over to the book shelf.
I’m getting the verb stem as Resh Ayin He (R, `, H), and the noun is a participle, Ro`eH. A related noun is MiR`eH = “pasturage”.
SEW...it’s like “pastor” who leads the animals to pasture. It’s more about what s/he does than about the sort of critter s/he does it too.
My hints were two: First, maybe 15 years ago I tracked the word down. Second in the instructions for Passover it says you can take the “lamb” from the sheep or the goats.
Odd thing about Dominic and most of the other saints that you guys pray to...You guys can't know whether Dominic went UP or DOWN...You may be praying to someone in Hell...
And then you somehow believe that these saints of yours can hear millions or prayer requests all at the same time and then pass them on to who, Mary???
The only thing you know about these people is what someone has written about them...
I just can not help but think that someone who knows Jesus would never waste his/her time messing with some supposed saint...
Gifts of the Spirit are listed in 1 Corinthians 12. They are special abilities given to certain believers for the edifying of the body of Christ.
The fruit of the Spirit is the outworking of God’s character and nature in us as we are filled with the Spirit and yield to His leading.
Isaiah 42:8 I am Jehovah, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another, Nor My praise to carved images.
Isaiah 48:11 For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it; For how should My name be profaned? And I will not give My glory to another.
Did you put in the last bit about all the prayers at once just for kicks — or to play rope-a-dope? I must have answered it half a dozen times at least.
You see, there is a suggestion that a prayer is like a message, and that it has to be passed on in heaven either by notes or mouth to ear or maybe some telepathy brain to brain thing. “Clear the line! I got one coming in from the Pope here! Y'all hush now.”
And yet WE are called carnal minded.
In any event, I don't know of anyone who asks Dominic to intercede with Mary.
I don't think it is impossible to tell whether someone is greatly sanctified.
I just can not help but think that someone who knows Jesus would never waste his/her time messing with some supposed saint...
Maybe you don't know any great saints.
As I’ve said, we think the Incarnation is a bigger deal than you guys think it is.
I don’t see how this means we shouldn’t ask for them. They are not earned, they are given. That makes them gifts in my version of English.
The problem with praying to *Saints* (those who have died and gone on before us who the RCC has canonized), is that unless they are omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, they are going to be incapable of attending to and answering the prayers of multitudes simultaneously. Only an omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, creator is capable of that kind of multitasking.
Not to mention, we are to consider Him our Abba- Daddy.
Luke 11:9-13 9And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened. 11What father among you, if his son asks for a fish, will instead of a fish give him a serpent; 12or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
John 14:12-14 12"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. 13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
John 16:22-27 22 So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. 23 In that day you will ask nothing of me. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask of the Father in my name, he will give it to you. 24Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
25"I have said these things to you in figures of speech. The hour is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figures of speech but will tell you plainly about the Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name, and I do not say to you that I will ask the Father on your behalf; 27 for the Father himself loves you, because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28 I came from the Father and have come into the world, and now I am leaving the world and going to the Father."
Hebrews 4:14-16 14Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Romans 8:26-27 26Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:33-34 33Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. 34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised— who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
Hebrews 7:22-25 22This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant. 23The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
So why bother with the middle man? There's simply no valid point in going to and through saints when Jesus Himself told us that we have direct access to the Father Himself.
Don’t include me in that *you guys*.
I was raised Roman Catholic, if you recall. I can’t speak for other non-Catholics, although I would doubt that to be true for true believers.
For the mainline Protestant churches who have just about abandoned any pretense of believing Scripture, that very well may be the case.
First. the technical stuff.
They do not have to be omnipresent, omniscient, or omnipotent,to hear the prayers addressed to them. They DO have to have more power and more knowledge than we, but not all power and all knowledge.
Second, if we Catholics are right about time and eternity, they have all the time they need in the Petrine one day that is as a thousand years.
To your main point, I don’t think it is only Catholics who out up threads here asking for our prayers. If they are wrong, then we are wrong.
For gravy, it may be self-delusion, but I know a few people who claim to receive direct comfort and counsel from the Saints. Clearly, that happens through the Holy Spirit if it happens at all.
But if it happens, then we are talking about Spiritual friendships. Unless our direct access to Jesus manes friendships are obsolete, then such relationships could be great gifts.
Well, “you guys” as in “all you who argue against the intercession of the saints.”
And you know this how? Just curious where you got your info from?
There is a distinction between asking someone who is living on this planet at the same time as we are, with whom we can communicate in a normal fashions using words, vs praying to someone who has died and left the physical plane of this existence.
We have been forbidden by God to contact the dead and I know all the typical arguments about that, but even the dead in hell are still living so that argument really has no merit.
There's simply no point in asking dead, canonized *Saints* to do anything for us when we can ask God to. What do you guys think is going to happen anyway? That you'll get something out of a saint that you won't get out of God? WHY ask them for things?
‘Well, “you guys” as in “all you who argue against the intercession of the saints.”’
Just curious now.....
I seem to be missing the connection here.
What does that have to do with what we think of the Incarnation.....?
The argument on your side is they can't do this unless they have all power and all knowledge.
But we're not talking about the saints knowing everything and being able to anything that can be done. We're talking about doing a few particular things.
Having the power or knowledge to do a few things, is not having the power to know or do all things.
There is a distinction between asking someone who is living on this planet at the same time as we are, with whom we can communicate in a normal fashions using words, vs praying to someone who has died and left the physical plane of this existence.
What exactly is that distinction? We rely on the Spirit in any case. We think the koinonia in the body of Christ is stronger and more important than death. We think the koinonia of the Holy Ghost more real, more vital, more important than any other. We think the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of the Word carries communication far better than vibrtions in the air or marks on paper.
We have been forbidden by God to contact the dead
Before the Incarnation and all that followed.
The point is very similar to the point of asking sinners on earth to pray for your needs. When I have a need, I ask my friends to pray. When I have a joy I ask my friends to share it with me.
Not all my friends have died. Some of them have. But nearly all my Christian friends have died with Christ and now live in His life. That death and that life are stronger and more real than the death of the body.
I don’t see any indication anywhere in the NT that indicates that we are to pray to those who have died and left this planet and stage of their existence.
Jesus taught us to pray to the Father. If it’s good enough for Him, it’s good enough for me.
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