Posted on 04/14/2011 9:21:51 AM PDT by marshmallow
The Ascension of Isaiah
“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . ” (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80])
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith” (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).
“The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten” (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).
Tertullian
“And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight” (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].
Pseudo-Melito
“If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’” (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).
Ephraim the Syrian
“You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?” (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).
Ambrose of Milan
“Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to” (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).
“The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?” (ibid., 2:2:7).
“Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin” (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).
Augustine
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
…
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
Timothy of Jerusalem
“Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption” (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
John the Theologian
“[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’” (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).
“And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise” (ibid.).
Gregory of Tours
“The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end” (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).
“But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her” (ibid., 1:8).
A lot of claims are made on "open" Religion Forum threads that the opposing posters would consider to be absurd, laughable, false, invented, etc. That should be expected in the town square format. And any of those terms may be used to describe the claim.
Discuss the issues all you want but do not make it personal.
It's not odd you would see it that way considering you are a Catholic.
Yeah, we're full of education and can understand words and concepts and stuff. If you actually paid attention to Scripture and the Faith, your posts would differ significantly.
IT'S ALL ABOUT JESUS!
I think that you are mixing up Christianity and whatever it is that you are currently peddling.
And JESUS is THE WORD
Very good.
and I'M PRO-WORD!
Normally one has to have at least a rudimentary understanding of something in order to be pro-. I'll give you a couple of examples:
My neighbours in my first house were Portuguese immigrants; their English was not good, but they had a beautiful, deep, strong and abiding faith in God and an understanding of the Faith that put most Christians' faith to shame.
In community where I live is a rising megachurch that thrives on poaching dissatisfied congregants from the area churches and feeding them on the Prosperity Gospel and feelgood swaying to rock music. The only thing definite about what those people believe is that they are thankful to God that they are not Catholics. Not a clue about salvation from God; not a clue even on the Trinity. Just an exclusive upper class club (yes, they are weeding out the lower classes now that their numbers are rising - Escalades are a minimum requirement) where you can go (but not on Christmas) on Sundays to get coffee and doughnuts and pizza and fellowship.
Just not a whole lot of Jesus.
God's WORD is The FINAL Authority
All of it, to you? Some of it? Some more than others? What about the Eucharist?
You are mind reading
Nonsense. I left my scanning electron miscroscope in my other pocket.
and looking/reading with catholic eyes on a Christian post.
How do you know what I'm doing? Are you mindreading? At any rate, Catholic and Christian are synonymous. If you wish to leave Christianity, at least have the grace to leave the name behind and call it something else.
your Rx for the day in your confusion.
Since I am of the Faith, my confusion is limited to considering why self-described Christians want to walk away from Jesus and not come back to the Church that He created and the Holy Spirit commissioned at Pentecost (Acts 2, if you need reminding - pay attention to verse 42 - it may be of interest to you).
A catholic talking about Jesus?
If you pull out of living the life of cartoon books, you may find out that a worldview of classifying Catholics as other than the original and only Christians is completely wrong.
What about what Jesus DID said about his mother?
We not only have that, we have the whole Bible. Not just snippets of Paul, washed down with Isaiah and bits of Jeremiah.
Why do you overlook what HE DID say and instead post 'who you think' who He will be with or not.
Not what I think, dude. What Jesus thinks. Did you miss the passages from Galatians and Matthew that I posted to your statement? Or do Jesus and Paul not fit into your current theology?
I'll play your little think game....
I post from the word of God - reverencing what Jesus has instructed us and bringing those commandments into my heart and soul. You may play all the games you wish with your salvation and the salvation of those that are around you - it is your Judgement, and your eternal disposition by Jesus, not mine.
Do you think He's with anyone that submit to man made teachings that nullify HIS very own WORD?
Would it bother you if I asked you to resubmit this in English?
Do you think He's with those who don't believe and live by God's Word is the Final Authority?
It doesn't matter what I think. It matter what He thinks. And what does He think?
Revelation 20: 11 9 Next I saw a large white throne and the one who was sitting on it. The earth and the sky fled from his presence and there was no place for them. 12 I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. 10 The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. 13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades 11 gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Not some fictional fairy tale of the resurrected bypassing the judgement like the OPC posts on its website; or some other fairy tale of believers getting a free pass because, well, they're believers - in opposition to what is actually in Scripture.
John 5: 21 For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, 9 so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes. 22 Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment 10 to his Son, 23 so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. 24 Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life. 25 Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself. 27 And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Jesus has the power of all judgement over all men. All men will be Judged - make no mistake.
Matthew 16: 24 19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me. 25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21 26 What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life? 27 22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
Jesus will Judge based upon each man's taking up his cross, denying himself and following Him.
Jesus is The Word - deny His Word as the FINAL Authority, you deny HIM!
The non Catholic denies His word in many ways. By denying the Judgement and substituting some fairy story, that is denying God's word. Do you believe that you will be Judged for your deeds?
If this isn’t worshiping Mary I don’t know what is.
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
In Honor of the Immaculate Conception
http://catholicism.about.com/od/tothevirginmary/qt/Honor_Immacula.htm
Prayer of Pope Pius XII
Enraptured by the splendor of your heavenly beauty, and impelled by the anxieties of the world, we cast ourselves into your arms, O Immaculate Mother of Jesus and our Mother, Mary, confident of finding in your most loving heart appeasement of our ardent desires, and a safe harbor from the tempests which beset us on every side.
Though degraded by our faults and overwhelmed by infinite misery, we admire and praise the peerless richness of sublime gifts with which God has filled you, above every other mere creature, from the first moment of your conception until the day on which, after your assumption into heaven, He crowned you Queen of the Universe.
O crystal fountain of faith, bathe our minds with the eternal truths! O fragrant Lily of all holiness, captivate our hearts with your heavenly perfume! O Conqueress of evil and death, inspire in us a deep horror of sin, which makes the soul detestable to God and a slave of hell!
O well-beloved of God, hear the ardent cry which rises up from every heart. Bend tenderly over our aching wounds. Convert the wicked, dry the tears of the afflicted and oppressed, comfort the poor and humble, quench hatreds, sweeten harshness, safeguard the flower of purity in youth, protect the holy Church, make all men feel the attraction of Christian goodness. In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognize that they are brothers, and that the nations are members of one family, upon which may there shine forth the sun of a universal and sincere peace.
Receive, O most sweet Mother, our humble supplications, and above all obtain for us that, one day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which today is sung on earth around your altars: You are all-beautiful, O Mary! You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people! Amen.
“O Conqueress of evil and death” So Mary conquered evil and death? Blasphemy, pure blasphemy.
“You are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honor of our people!” Mary? Not Jesus? Another pure blasphemy.
I just read the beginning of your post. Your catholic perspective will never see The TRUTH of God’s Word - so posting your opinions that are based on Rome/RCC man made teachings that opposed God’s Word are diddle squat. And, right now, they are not worthy of my God-given time.
Propaganda postings based on man made teachings doesn’t draw conservatives - try as catholics do - they FAIL!
GOD’S WORD is The Final Authority. God, Family, Country.
Conservatives agree - liberals oppose.
John 14: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Ignore it at your peril.
No offense, you are fixated on the lesser of the points I have raised, and up to this point you have ignored entirely.
Someone who lives a perfect and sinless life would not have behaved the way Mary behaved towards Jesus in this circumstance. By saying “How could you treat us this way?” is saying that Jesus did not treat her and Joseph properly. Insofar that he stayed at the temple without their knowledge, that it took them three days of frantic (anxious) searching to find Him. Yet Jesus says they should have known where He was, in His Father’s house. Basically his refute is saying there was no basis for them to feel like He did anything wrong (which He didn’t).
But again, you spend no time on the other points I raise, for the second time. Which are far stronger evidence and not refutable, which is why I believe you don’t reference them at all.
Not only do most not appear to think through what they believe . . . beyond the dead skin cells on their noses . . . many don’t seem to think much at all . . . about a great deal.
INDEED.
All those prayers going to supposed saints that God doesn’t hear. I so wish we could better help them understand the error of their ways.
I hope that your lips are not sore.
Your catholic perspective will never see The TRUTH of God’s Word
Sorry, we have it from the successors of the Apostles, who got it from the Apostles, who got it from Jesus. That is our perspective. Where did you say you got yours from?
Matthew 16: 13 8 When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" 14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets." 15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 11 Simon Peter said in reply, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Our authority comes from Jesus.
Matthew 28: 18 11 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, 12 and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. 13 And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."
The Church has the authority, given to it by Jesus, who will be with them always. Individual men do not have the authority; further, they come up with different gospels.
2 Timothy 2: 1 1 So you, my child, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well.
Paul primarily taught; he did not primarily write. He taught his priests and deacons so that they could then transmit Paul's teachings (that of the Church) and establish them and make sure that they are correct according to what they have been taught.
1 Timothy 3: 14 6 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon. 15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
This is Paul, documenting the role and the authority of the Church as it pertains to the Gospel. The Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth of Jesus Christ. Not any Tom, Dick or Calvin. Or pnsn. Or Mark, for that matter.
One of the things that the Protestant will say is that he has his God - his own personal God. I will counter with the perspective that you guys have it opposite to the way that it really is. I don't have God. God has me. All I've gotta do is believe in Him. All I've gotta do is accept Him and do His will. All I've gotta do is pick up my cross and follow Him.
And, pay a whole lot more attention to the third beatitude.
Oh, God hears the thoughts and intents of our hearts.
And, I can imagine that He might even answer some prayers out of the hearts of RC’s who truly seek HIM.
HOWEVER, I’d guess that folks praying to everyone and sundry and their dogs and cats
would not be first in line candidates for
TRULY SEEKING GOD, FIRST, FOREMOST MIDDLE AND LAST!
We don’t seem to be connecting. Perhaps another time. God bless.
Ah, a clear implementation of what Christ taught after pentacoastal insight has refined it to mean, "chase that 99th sheep down with the same sort of mockery Roman soldiers heaped on Christ".
Don't worry though, another of their teachings is that if anyone buys the right hankie they can pray to whatever they darn well please and they're assured of Blue Light Special Blessings!!
Mary having free will, she had the power to say "No." By assenting to God's plan, "Be it done unto me according to Thy word," she did put into motion the conquest of sin and death. Had she refused, the Incarnation would not have occurred - at least not then and in that way.
So yes, she is our glory (note: not God's glory nor the "glory of the holy archangels" - a title reserved to Christ) -- she is the human being who facilitated our salvation. So we praise her as the crown of humanity -- her Son, far above her, is both perfect God and perfect man. But she is one of us, and she bore Him.
Our gaze is directed toward you in great fear, to you do we turn with ever-more insistent faith in these times marked by many uncertainties and fears for the present and future of our planet. Together we lift our confident and sorrowful petition to you, the first fruit of humanity redeemed by Christ, finally freed from the slavery of evil and sin: hear the cry of the pain of victims of war and so many forms of violence that bloody the earth. Clear away the darkness of sorrow and worry, of hate and vengeance. Open up our minds and hearts to faith and forgiveness!” —Pope John Paul II
"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -1st Timothy 2:5
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
That was worship, plain and simple. It's not hyperbole, and it is most certainly over the top.
Anyone could easily have inserted the name of God in wherever the name or Mary was present in that unbelievable display of idolatry and it would still work.
To deny that that is worship displays an alarming degree of denial and delusion.
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