Posted on 03/19/2011 10:57:34 PM PDT by dangus
"My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior." -- Luke 1:47
It is undeniable, that "Savior" in this sense alludes to being saved from sin. So the question is: If Mary had never sinned, or was never guilty of original sin, as the Catholic Church states, why would she need a Savior?
As in English, in Greek word for "Savior" ("soter") comes from the word for "safe" ("sozo"). In modern English, the connection between "safe" and "heal" is largely lost, but "salvation" retains the root, "salv," from "salve," meaning "heal" or "a healing ointment." Thus, the notion of a "savior" being one who restores health, or undoes harm is not a completely incorrect notion. But neither should it overshadow the fundamental meaning that a "savior" is one who prevents harm, as much as one who restores one from harm.
Therefore, it should hardly be surprising that one who has been prevented from original sin should rejoice in her "savior" from original sin.
In fact, the term "savior" in Greek has a connotation of a god who preserves his people. As explained in the Protestant lexicon, Strong's Concordance,:
The name was given by the ancients to deities, esp. tutelary deities, to princes, kings, and in general to men who had conferred signal benefits upon their country, and in more degenerate days by the way of flattery to personages of influence.(Wigram) The word soter was a common Greek epithet for the gods (e.g., Zeus, Apollo, and Hermes), active personalities in world affairs (e.g., Epicurus) and rulers (e.g., Ptolemy Philopator, and later Roman Emporers). (cf. LSJ and BDAG)God certainly was Mary's Lord and Protector, who kept her safe from sin. That does not mean she sinned.
But doesn't Paul state that "all have sinned?" Is Paul wrong?
Not in the least. As Protestant theologian Charles Spurgeon explains (in an alternate context) the meaning of "all," (in Greek, "pas"):
"... 'The whole world is gone after him.' Did all the world go after Christ? 'Then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.' Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan? 'Ye are of God, little children', and 'the whole world lieth in the wicked one.' Does 'the whole world' there mean everybody? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were 'of God?' The words 'world' and 'all' are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture; and it is very rarely that 'all' means all persons, taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile." (Charles H. Spurgeon, Particular Redemption, A Sermon, 28 Feb 1858).In context, what Paul is saying is that Jews (in general) and Greeks (in general), and every other people (in general) have sinned. To establish that Jews are no better than any other people, he quotes the prophet Isaiah,
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.In this passage, the prophet is describing the Jews around him, and uses the phrase, "There is no-one righteous, not one." It's been argued that the prophet is describing in a prophetic sense not just the Jews around him, but the universal condition of man, as a result of original sin. It might make sense to say that all we who have committed original sin are not righteous in a sense, since our righteousness is imputed righteousness, earned not by our own effort, but by Christ's sacrifice on our behalf.
As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways and the way of peace they do not know.
" "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
But that same passage asserts that not one has done anything good at all, that they know not the way of peace, and there is no fear of God among anyone. Even if our righteousness is merely imputed, and our ability to do good relies entirely on Christ acting through us, regenerated Christians do good, know the way of peace and fear God. As such, we know that Paul is using that passage only to establish that Jews need Christ as much as Gentiles, for they have been as wicked as Gentiles, he is not using that passage to describe saved Christians.
But the Blessed Virgin Mary lived (in part) before the Holy Sacrifice, the Resurrection and the Descent of the Holy Spirit? How can she have been saved from sin?
The bible explicitly states that salvation occurred anticipating these events. For the prophet Simeon stated upon seeing the infant Jesus, "Mine eyes have seen thy salvation." How could this be? Whose salvation has he witnessed?
Mary's.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God...including Mary.
She needed a savior ,too.
Really? That’s funny.
Jhn 19:27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own [home].
Luk 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
Luk 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed [art] thou among women, and blessed [is] the fruit of thy womb.
Luk 1:43 And whence [is] this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Luk 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
Luk 1:45 And blessed [is] she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.
Luk 1:46 ¶ And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Luk 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
Luk 1:48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
Luk 1:49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy [is] his name.
Luk 1:50 And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.
Luk 1:51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Luk 1:52 He hath put down the mighty from [their] seats, and exalted them of low degree.
Luk 1:53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.
Luk 1:54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of [his] mercy;
Luk 1:55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.
Rev 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days.
Rev 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, [ye] heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 ¶ And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man [child].
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Luk 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this [child] is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
Luk 2:35 Yea, (Greek: “Moreover”) a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
Mat 1:1 ¶ The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 1:2 Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
Mat 1:3 And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
Mat 1:4 And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
Mat 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
Mat 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Mat 1:7 And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
Mat 1:8 And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
Mat 1:9 And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
Mat 1:10 And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
Mat 1:11 And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
Mat 1:12 ¶ And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
Mat 1:13 And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
Mat 1:14 And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
Mat 1:15 And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
Mat 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
[What’s the significance of all these people? They begat Joseph. Why is he significant? He’s the husband of Mary (who is significant because she is the mother of God).
It seems perfectly natural to consider Mary blessed. Most especially given the record kept all those thousands of years to her being where she was appointed to be when she was appointed. BUT it is a wild and out there leap to hand to Mary the power to command as with an authority with consequences....
It would be impossible NOT to worship a being that had power to command, even BambaKennedy presents these common principles of requiring we laborers to bend our knee to him or his image... But Mary NEVER EVER put on the airs of the BambaKennedy types.
FYI: I simply wanted a brief Scripture based view point on why Mary was a sinner who needed a saviour just like everyone else, and to call out Rome for not acknowledging that Mary was correct, not Rome. Romans 3:10, 3:21-23, Luke 1:47. Rome never gets these verses correct.
“all people shall call me blessed.”
How is this a command?
To me it just shows the pride and joy that Mary experienced over the fact that she was to bear the Saviour of all mankind! Yes she was truly blessed! But what does blessed mean in this context? We tend to look at people who have good luck in life, such as one being born with talent, good nature, beauty and/or fortune, as being “blessed.” To me, this is what Mary was saying...in this case the blessing was directly by God’s working. No doubt she is to be highly esteemed, and even though I cannot think off the top of my head that God even mentions why she was chosen, I know He does not tell us it was because she was pure, Holy and had never sinned! And I don’t think God would leave that out imo.
Actually, Kelly4c, that single word is one of the places where the bible does say Mary was immaculate.
See, although most concordances DIRECTLY LIE and claim that the Greek word is “charitou,” the word is actually, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning “completely filled with grace.”
Not just “full,” but “completely filled.” As in, “lacking none.”
Now, if Mary hasn’t ALREADY BEEN SAVED, she’s under condemnation to eternal hell. That’s pretty lacking in grace isn’t it? How can one be “completely filled with grace,” while still so utterly depraved as to merit eternal hell? Nobody else in the bible is ever called “ketocharitoumene.” No-one. Because no-one else is so filled with grace.
And please not, that “completely filled with grace” is actually a past tense verb, not just an adjective. This means her salvation has already occurred BEFORE she conceives Christ.
So yes, the word you pointed out PROVES the case that Mary WAS spared original sin.
Mary did not say “All people will call me blessed,” or “all people may call me blessed,” but “all people SHALL call me blessed.” Ask a legislator or a lawyer about the meaning of the word, “shall.”
Of course, the command is not truly Mary’s; it is the Holy Spirit dictating the will of the Father through Mary, in honor of the Son.
Luke 1:47, “. . . and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. .
How can she call him "my savior" as in the present tense unless she was Immaculately concieved(saved from sin) to bear the divinity who became man. Remember the angel did not rip the curtain after Christ expired on the cross. Not yet. That action signified absolutely the old testament works system was over. But it did not happen until later from this statement.
So the old testament system was still in effect until that moment with the angel. She had to be sinless to bear the most High and Holy God that people died from being sinful in the past.
Thus she speaks" My Savior" as in the present tense being it already happened.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IIhttp://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-II
The Christ child had a earthly mother, when the Bible says "mother of God"; it is only in reference to the earthly mother role of Christ, who is God, but it does not infer a higher role as to the actual mother of God as in God the Father, as if God had some sort of a beginning...that kind of thinking is blaspheming God as eternal and blasphemes Christ's deity as having no beginning.
>> That would make her a ‘deity’, to have never sinned. <<
Really? My bible doesn’t say that not sinning makes someone a deity. What bible are you using? Weren’t you just criticizing people for supporting their own beliefs with weak evidence, while ignoring mountains of evidence to the contrary? What evidence do you have for this bizarre assertion? How is that consistent with sola scriptura?
>> I can’t find any explicit words that said Enoch sinned either, or even for that matter Able. <<
I can’t either. But then, neither of them were called, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning, “filled to completion with grace.” Nor were they called, “Mother of my LORD,” by one speaking with the Holy Spirit. Nor were they used to symbolize the whole of the Christian church (Rev. 12).
But why does Joseph’s bloodline matter when he had nothing to do with the begetting of Christ? They didn’t have sex to produce the Lord. It was supernatural.
Also, it’s late so I can’t go into detail like I want but real quick the text about Mary clothed with the sun and the remnant of her seed (Jesus) I still don’t get how some think she is portrayed there as anything but the esteemed woman (human vessel of Jesus) whom God protects from Satan’s grasp. When Jesus says nobody can come to the father but by him, etc. He never points to Mary as having anything to do with our fate, or the plan of salvation after the cross.
You are absolutely correct. God never once communicates in the Bible that Mary has any role in our salvation after the cross. Only God can forgive sins; and Christ Jesus died once for all time to forgive sins: sins past, sins present. God alone supplies our salvation. Mary has nothing do with salvation after the cross.
Case in point.
>>“I cannot find recorded anywhere in the WHOLE of the Bible that Mary never sinned.”
Oh? I cannot find recorded anywhere in the WHOLE of the Bible that Mary ever sinned.<<
Did she poop? The Bible seems to be silent on this. Just asking...
Really? My bible doesn’t say that not sinning makes someone a deity. What bible are you using? Weren’t you just criticizing people for supporting their own beliefs with weak evidence, while ignoring mountains of evidence to the contrary? What evidence do you have for this bizarre assertion? How is that consistent with sola scriptura?
>> I can’t find any explicit words that said Enoch sinned either, or even for that matter Able. <<
I can’t either. But then, neither of them were called, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning, “filled to completion with grace.” Nor were they called, “Mother of my LORD,” by one speaking with the Holy Spirit. Nor were they used to symbolize the whole of the Christian church (Rev. 12).
Isn't there a scripture about straining at a gnat....?
Now was the filled to the brim overflowing grace before the conception or after?
I suppose I could heap up a mountain of evidence snipping and clipping here and there words, to prove any thing.
>> First and foremost...GOD has NO mother.
The Christ child had a earthly mother, when the Bible says “mother of God”; it is only in reference to the earthly mother role of Christ, who is God, but it does not infer a higher role as to the actual mother of God as in God the Father, as if God had some sort of a beginning...that kind of thinking is blaspheming God as eternal and blasphemes Christ’s deity as having no beginning. <<
Absolutely CORRECT. And now you have just hit on the VERY REASON why the Catholic Church insisted on the name, “Theotokos,” (Mother of God). Heretics were insisting that Jesus was either fully human (and therefore not God), or fully God (and therefore not human at all). By asserting that God had a mother, they were NOT asserting that Mary was a God, but that Christ had both natures, which were inseparable.
This is precisely why she had to be immaculately conceived: If she had the taint of sin, her very blood would desecrate God! That’s right: As mother, her very blood was sustaining the life within her that was God! It HAD to be pure.
Now, Christ permitted himself to be desecrated, but it was evil that he was desecrated, an evil which he permitted, but did not commit. To be born in an impure vessel would be God himself committing an act of evil against God’s own holiness.
It’s of course a mysterious, incomprhensible miracle that God would allow himself to be sinned against so gravely as to be killed on a cross, to demonstrate his love for us.
But the incarnation, itself, is also an amazing miracle: That a human being could be made pure enough to contact God in a manner which was not a desecration makes our admittance into the throneroom of God comprehensible.
To ask, “What Would Jesus Do” is a great reminder of our call to holiness. But we do lack Jesus’ divine nature. It’s also fitting to ask how someone who lacks Jesus’ divine nature, but has been made worthy of him, would respond. So Catholics look to the commands of Christ, such as “Do this in memory of me,” “Go forth and preach the good news,” etc. But when we want to know how to “love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your might,” we also look to the simple response, “Let it be done to me, O LORD, according to thy will.”
He became a baby weaned by Mary his mother to grow up into a man. So God wanted this to be. And so it is what it is. If you read about the two natures of God you will be able to understand. He was Human and Divine.
She was his mother as he also had and will always have his divinity forever. Since this is reality she is his Mother forever ever since He became human with her. And he is also human now as we speak too. So dual nature of Christ makes her the Mother Of God. If this is not true why did God come from a mother into humanity. Because she just is his mother period.
Wether you know it or not you disrespect God. Because if you do not believe Christ came in the flesh you do not have him in you. Thus he came in the flesh thru a Mother who is Christ's humanity yet with his divinity. Otherwise he is not Christ.
Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!!! AMEN!! AMEN!!
>> Now was the filled to the brim overflowing grace before the conception or after? <<
Christ died to atone for our sins. If Mary sinned, and those sins were removed before Christ’s death, then the removal of her sins was not a result of Christ’s death, and therefore, his death was not necessary for the removal of her sins. On the other hand, if she was saved from sin BEFORE she could be guilty of it, then she could be sinless WHEN Christ was conceived, not only after his death.
>> Isn’t there a scripture about straining at a gnat....? <<
What exactly are you calling straining at a gnat? You make an assertion that a doctrine isn’t biblical. I use the bible to prove it is. And then when I prove my case, you call my citation of the bible, “straining at a gnat”?
Is it “straining at a gnat” to fulfill the commandment, “All people shall call me blessed”? Is it “straining at a gnat” to defend the Church which Christ founded against slander (the CHURCH, mind you, not those within it who certainly may be evil)? Is it “straining at a gnat” to appreciate that God made one soul so perfect as to permit himself to be formed within her body, blood of her blood, flesh of her flesh?
>> But why does Joseph’s bloodline matter when he had nothing to do with the begetting of Christ? <<
That’s exactly the point. I was responding to the notion that the bible didn’t have much to say about Mary. I pointed out that Matthew walks us through an entire history of the Jewish people, all leading up to Joseph, and then points out that Joseph’s significance was solely that he was husband of Mary; he was not Father of Jesus, he was only husband of the Mother of Jesus, and even that role overshadowed all of the history of God’s chosen people.
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