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To: kelly4c

Actually, Kelly4c, that single word is one of the places where the bible does say Mary was immaculate.

See, although most concordances DIRECTLY LIE and claim that the Greek word is “charitou,” the word is actually, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning “completely filled with grace.”

Not just “full,” but “completely filled.” As in, “lacking none.”

Now, if Mary hasn’t ALREADY BEEN SAVED, she’s under condemnation to eternal hell. That’s pretty lacking in grace isn’t it? How can one be “completely filled with grace,” while still so utterly depraved as to merit eternal hell? Nobody else in the bible is ever called “ketocharitoumene.” No-one. Because no-one else is so filled with grace.

And please not, that “completely filled with grace” is actually a past tense verb, not just an adjective. This means her salvation has already occurred BEFORE she conceives Christ.

So yes, the word you pointed out PROVES the case that Mary WAS spared original sin.


26 posted on 03/19/2011 11:59:30 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus; kelly4c
So yes, the word you pointed out PROVES the case that Mary WAS spared original sin.

*original sin*. Another Catholic construct.

90 posted on 03/20/2011 11:27:30 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: dangus; Just mythoughts; Claud; RnMomof7; Quix
See, although most concordances DIRECTLY LIE and claim that the Greek word is “charitou,” the word is actually, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning “completely filled with grace.”

Regarding Luke 1:28 – the only people lying here is the RCC. Here’s the text IN GREEK:

καὶ εἰσελθὼν πρὸς αὐτὴν εἶπεν Χαῖρε, κεχαριτωμένη, ὁ κύριος μετὰ σοῦ.

κεχαριτωμένη, is the pf. pass. ptcp. of χαριτόω (charitoō). It is the single Greek word kexaritomena and means highly favored, make accepted, make graceful, etc. REPEATED: It is a passive participle derived from charitoō. It does not mean "full of grace" or ‘completely filled with grace’ which is "plaras karitos" (plaras = full and karitos = Grace) in the Greek. What does it mean then? κεχαριτωμένη and its definitions :

5923 χαριτόω (charitoō): vb.; Str 5487; TDNT 9.372—LN 88.66 show kindness graciously give, freely give (Eph 1:6); as a passive participle, subst., “one highly favored.”

5487 χαριτόω [charitoo /khar•ee•to•o/] v. From 5485; TDNT 9:372; TDNTA 1298; GK 5923; Two occurrences; AV translates as “be highly favoured” once, and “make accepted” once. 1 to make graceful. 1a charming, lovely, agreeable. 2 to peruse with grace, compass with favour. 3 to honour with blessings.

There is only one place where ‘full of grace’ is actually found in the GREEK text (John 1:14) throughout Scripture. John 1:14 says, “And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” The GREEK text:

Καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο καὶ ἐσκήνωσεν ἐν ἡμῖν, καὶ ἐθεασάμεθα τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, δόξαν ὡς μονογενοῦς παρὰ πατρός, πλήρης χάριτος καὶ ἀληθείας·

Notice the difference: πλήρης (plērēs) and χάρις (charis) in John 1:14 and κεχαριτωμένη, in Luke 1:28.

The only place where ‘full of grace’ is actually found in the GREEK TEXT, i.e., “plaras karitos’ (NOT kexaritomena [κεχαριτωμένη]) is in reference to CHRIST, not Mary. AND HE STANDS ALONE.

The RCC gets it wrong because the RCC uses the Latin Vulgate, a Latin translation done by Jerome in the 4th century, rather than the Greek text in Luke 1:28. Erroneously translating κεχαριτωμένη, as “full of grace” instead of “favored one”. Every other translation (which btw actually translates from the GREEK text rather than from the LATIN) translates Luke 1:28 as ‘favored’ not ‘full of grace’:

1. The Nestle Aland 26th edition, Greek New Testament Interlinear - "having gone into her he said rejoice one having been favored, the master is with you."
2. The NRSV English Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament - And he came to her and said, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."
3. American Standard Version - "And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee."
4. English Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!
5. Today's English Version - '"The angel came to her and said, “Peace be with you! The Lord is with you and has greatly blessed you!”
6. King James Version- "And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."
7. New American Standard Bible - "And coming in, he said to her, Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.
8. New International Version - "The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.
9. New King James Version - "And having come in, the angel said to her, Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!
10. Revised Standard Version - "And he came to her and said, 'Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!'
11. New Revised Standard Version - And he came to her and said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”
12. The New Century Version - The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”
13. New Living Translation - Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!'”
14. The Cambridge Paragraph Bible - And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, 'thou that art 'highly favoured, 'the Lord is with thee: 'blessed art thou among women.
15. The Holman Christian Standard Bible - "And the angel came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you."
16. International Standard Version - '"The angel'' came to her and said, “'Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you!"

#1 - Now you can either believe every single Greek scholar on the planet who actually worked from the GREEK manuscripts translated Luke 1:28 WRONG, and the RCC is the only one who got it right; or you can do as I do and acknowledge facts that it’s the RCC who is trying to swim upstream on this passage.

#2 - Had Luke intended to use ‘full of grace’ instead of ‘favored one’ he would have said plaras karitos not kexaritomena. But he didn’t because he knew the only one ever born sinless was Christ. Had Mary been without sin she would NOT have said “God my Savior” in Luke 1:47 – ‘Theos egō sōtēr” (θεῷ τῷ σωτῆρί μου·) - egō [μου·] is personal, it is translated ME, MY, MINE. You cannot get around μου· in that passage no matter how much one tries to corrupt the text. One without sin does not need a Savior, only a sinner needs a Savior. If Mary was without sin, then she LIED in this passage! That would then make her a sinner wouldn’t it?!?!

131 posted on 03/20/2011 8:35:16 PM PDT by conservativegramma (u)
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To: dangus
Normally I would not post to this type of thread, but because more than one person has submitted erroneous claims ... I feel I must interject here.

See, although most concordances DIRECTLY LIE and claim that the Greek word is “charitou,” the word is actually, “Ketocharitoumene,” meaning “completely filled with grace.”

The greek word used here in Luke is κεχαριτωμένη ...

Any first semester Greek student would recognize this verb form as the perfect tense of χαριτoω. The κε at the beginning is the usual consonantal reduplication that characterizes the perfect tense verb formation.

The word does not mean "completely filled with grace" as you claim.

These are the lexicons I have in my library:

1. Frieberg, Analytical Greek Lexicon
2. Louw & Nida, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT
3. Liddell & Scott, Greek Lexicon
4. Thayer, Greek-English Lexicon of the NT
5. Moulton & Milligan, Vocabulary of the Greek NT
6. Gingrich, Greek New Testament Lexicon

and finally, the scholarly standard in Greek Lexical work today

7. Bauer, Ardt, Gingrich & Danker, A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature

Not one of them even remotely suggests that the meaning is anything more than the simple "one who has been favored/graced."

138 posted on 03/20/2011 9:35:22 PM PDT by dartuser ("Dealing with preterists is like cleaning the litter box ... but at least none of the cats are big.")
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