The Pandemic of End-Times Dysfunction (E.D.)

The Gary DeMar Show ^ | Nov 12, 2009 | Joel McDurmon

[topcat54]

Joel McDurmon, hosting today's show for Gary DeMar, exposes End-times Dysfunction (E.D.) for what it is. Joel shares with doomsdayers how they can get relief from their paranoia and troubled souls.

[Cronos]

“God helps those who help themselves” —> it’s quoted so often, folks think it is biblical

[topcat54]

It looks like even your Westminster Confession lists them as 2 separate things. Good works can and should flow out of a sanctified (consecrated) heart, but sanctification does not equal good works.

The subject was faith that is not alone. Justification is a forensic declaration of holiness. We receive a new heart when we are justified (Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26). Sanctification is the process of being made holy in this life. Good works are the evidence of ongoing sanctification in the believer.

[Mr Rogers]

“Now after John was arrested, Jesus came into Galilee, proclaiming the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: Become a Better You!”

Mark, as updated by Joel Osteen.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

[Cronos]

ok, I get it, he’s similar to a self-help guru. Though — what’s wrong with that as long as he is theologically sound?

[Mr Rogers]

I think he teaches a prosperity gospel, which would be totally wrong. I don’t listen to him, but a preacher who doesn’t want to mention sin has missed the first part of the gospel - repent!

[Mr Rogers]

“When Elijah gave Ahab this message, it was up to Ahab to decide what he wanted to do with it. He could have said, “I don’t believe this, Elijah. There is not a cloud in the sky.” In other words, “Joel, I don’t think I’m going to have a good year. There is no sign of it. Business is slow. My medical report doesn’t look good. My child is still acting up.” Ahab could have looked at it in the natural and said, “I’m not going to get my hopes up. Elijah doesn’t know what he is talking about.” No, Ahab dared to believe and put action behind his faith. The next verse says, “He went out and prepared a great feast.” You know, it took a lot of nerve to prepare a feast in the midst of the drought. While other people were complaining, negative, depressed and bitter, here’s Ahab celebrating. Friend, this is what faith is all about! You can’t wait to see it before you believe. You have to believe and let your faith open the door so you can see it! “

http://www.joelosteen.com/HopeForToday/JoelAndVictoriasBlog/Pages/BlogEntry.aspx?item=a3613579-5d2a-4405-80f9-32670bde5c7c

First time I’ve seen someone hold up King Ahab as a positive example of faith...

Here is what the scripture says, in context:

36And at the time of the offering of the oblation, Elijah the prophet came near and said, “O LORD, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel, and that I am your servant, and that I have done all these things at your word. 37Answer me, O LORD, answer me, that this people may know that you, O LORD, are God, and that you have turned their hearts back.” 38 Then the fire of the LORD fell and consumed the burnt offering and the wood and the stones and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench. 39And when all the people saw it, they fell on their faces and said, “The LORD, he is God; the LORD, he is God.” 40And Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal; let not one of them escape.” And they seized them. And Elijah brought them down to the brook Kishon and slaughtered them there.

41And Elijah said to Ahab, “Go up, eat and drink, for there is a sound of the rushing of rain.” 42So Ahab went up to eat and to drink. And Elijah went up to the top of Mount Carmel. And he bowed himself down on the earth and put his face between his knees. 43And he said to his servant, “Go up now, look toward the sea.” And he went up and looked and said, “There is nothing.” And he said, “Go again,” seven times. 44And at the seventh time he said, “Behold, a little cloud like a man’s hand is rising from the sea.” And he said, “Go up, say to Ahab, ‘Prepare your chariot and go down, lest the rain stop you.’” 45And in a little while the heavens grew black with clouds and wind, and there was a great rain. And Ahab rode and went to Jezreel. 46 And the hand of the LORD was on Elijah, and he gathered up his garment and ran before Ahab to the entrance of Jezreel.

[OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian]

Thank you topcat54. I wondered if I was the only person who thought this entire Rapture nonsense was just another tool for cults.

The Seventh day Adventists started with this nonsense and it is so sad that one hundred and fifty years later that it is still believed by many gullible people.

[Quix]

I didn’t realize your rubberized pseudo-”Bible” was missing Thessalonians.

[OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian]

Why are you attacking me?

[Quix]

Why do you construe that as a

PERSONAL

attack?

[Quix]

Some good article by Chuck Missler follow--occasional slight Quixicated emphases:

from:

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2002/444/print/

Rapture Questions Continue:

Our Blessed Hope

by Chuck Missler

We continue to receive many questions concerning the "Rapture" of the church and its apparent contrast with the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where does this strange view come from? Is the term "rapture" even in the Bible?

Clearly, the idea of the Rapture can be considered the most preposterous belief in Biblical Christianity. It reminds me of the famous quote by Dr. Richard Feynman, speaking of quantum physics:

I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics... in fact, it is often stated of all the theories proposed in this century, the silliest is quantum theory. Some say that the only thing that quantum theory has going for it, in fact, is that it is unquestionably correct.

The situation regarding the doctrine of the Rapture is painfully similar.

The Harpz

The mysterious event known as the Rapture is most clearly presented in Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he encourages the grieving Christians that, at the "great snatch," they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them.

But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

In verse 17, the English phrase "caught up" translates the Greek word harpz, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up."

There are those who claim that the word "rapture" isn't in their Bible. That's because they aren't using the Latin translation:

...deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus.. -1 Thessalonians 4:17 (Latin Vulgate) ¹

The Latin equivalent of the Greek harpz is the Latin verb rapio, "to take away by force." In the Latin Vulgate, one of the oldest Bibles in existence, the appropriate tense of rapio appears in verse 17. (Raptus is the past participle of rapio, and our English words "rapt" and "rapture" stem from this past participle.)

At the Rapture, living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment in time, to join the Lord in the air.

The Promise

This will be the fulfillment of the promise which our Lord confirmed at the Last Supper:

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. -John 14:1-3

This thrilling promise wasn't given to everyone, only to His believers. (Judas had already left by then.)

This appears to parallel the promise of the bridegroom in the pattern of the ancient Jewish wedding, where, after the ketubah, the engagement, but before the huppah, the formal ceremony, the groom departed to prepare a new home for his bride, usually an addition to his father's house. The bride was kept in a state of expectancy pending his return-often in the middle of the night, as a surprise.

(The huppah, the wedding ceremony, was followed with a seven-day celebration, etc.)

The Process

The anticipation of a bodily resurrection after life on this earth pervades the entire Bible. In the oldest book of the Bible, Job declares:

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. -Job 19:25-27

Yet, when our Lord comes to gather His church, there will be a generation alive at that time. In his discussion of the Resurrection in his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul again deals with this astonishing event:

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? -1 Corinthians 15:51-55

(From quantum physics considerations, I suspect that this transformation, "in the twinkling of an eye," will occur digitally in 10-43 of a second.) ²

The Imminent Gathering

Clearly, the Bible teaches us to expect Him at any moment. This is called the Doctrine of Imminency: it is next on the program and may take place very soon.

(The word "imminent" should not be confused with "immanent," which, in theological contexts, means that God is not only transcendent, or far above us, but that He is always with us and active on our behalf. Nor should it be confused with "eminent," which is a title of honor reserved for persons of outstanding distinction.)

Imminency expresses hope and a warm spirit of expectancy, ³ which should result in a victorious and purified life. ⁴ Believers are taught to expect the Savior from heaven at any moment. ⁵

Paul seemed to include himself among those who looked for Christ's return. ⁶ Timothy was admonished to "keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ." ⁷ Jewish converts were reminded that "yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry." ⁸

Some have concluded that the expectation of some were so strong they had stopped work and had to be exhorted to return to their jobs, ⁹ and have patience. ¹⁰

Two Events?

There are many that hold to the view that emerged in the Medieval church (Catholic and Protestant) that the "Second Coming" of Christ and the "Rapture" are somehow the same. Yet there seems to be a number of indications that these are distinct and separate.

In contrast to the imminent gathering of His church, there are numerous passages that deal with precedent events which must transpire prior to the "Second Coming" to establish His kingdom on the earth. Some of the passages referring to the Rapture and the Second Coming are summarized at the the table below.

Rapture	Second Coming
John 14:1-3	Dan 2:44-45
Rom 8:19	Dan 7:9-14
1 Cor 1:7-8	Dan 12:1-3
1 Cor 15:1-53	Zech 14:1-15
1 Cor 16:22	Matt 13:41
Phil 3:20-21	Matt 24:15-31
Col 3:4	Matt 26:64
1 Thess 1:10	Mark 13:14-27
1 Thess 2:19	Mark 14:62
1 Thess 4:13-18	Luke 21:25-28
1 Thess 5:9	Acts 1:9-11
1 Thess 5:23	Acts 3:19-21
2 Thess 2:1 (3?)	1 Thess 3:13
1 Tim 6:14	2 Thess 1:6-10
2 Tim 4:1	2 Thess 2:8
Titus 2:13	2 Peter 3:1-14
Heb 9:28	Jude 14-15
James 5:7-9	Rev 1:7
1 Peter 1:7, 13	Rev 19:11-20:6
1 John 2:28-3:2	Rev 22:7, 12, 20
Jude 21
Rev 2:25
Rev 3:10

Why So Many Views?

There are, of course, many differing views, especially regarding matters of eschatology - the study of "last things." This diversity derives from several factors: the disciplines associated with hermeneutics - the theory of interpretation - as well as the need to integrate an understanding of the entirety of God's revealed plan of redemption: "the whole counsel of God."

The need to relate the various elements of end-time events, such as the Great Tribulation, the events surrounding the Seventieth Week of Daniel, the Millennium, and other related issues, requires precise definitions and diligent study. We will address many of these in our subsequent articles in the hopes that they will prove helpful in understanding these issues and assisting you in formulating your own views regarding these challenges. (We will discover that some of the principal controversies are more an issue of ecclesiology than eschatology! But more of this next time.)

These are not "peripheral" issues (as they may have seemed in the past). [Quixicated]We believe we are being plunged into a period of time about which the Bible says more than it does about any other period of human history-including the time that Jesus walked the shore of the Sea of Galilee and climbed the mountains of Judea! It is the most exciting time to be alive! But if we are to be diligent stewards, we need to carefully revise our priorities to match His!

* * *

This article was originally published in the
December 2002 Personal Update NewsJournal.

.

from

http://www.khouse.org/articles/2003/451/

A Concluding Review:

The Harpazo

by Chuck Missler

Concluding our brief series of articles on our "Blessed Hope," ¹ there would seem to be seven harpzs ("raptures") in the Bible: Enoch,² Elijah,³ Philip, ⁴ Paul,⁵ John⁶ and Jesus,⁷ and, of course, the Body of Christ, ⁸ the Church.  (In fact, the very Greek term, harpoz, is employed in four of these references.⁹)

Since Paul highlights that the mystery of the Church was his privilege to reveal in the New Testament,¹⁰ it is fashionable to assume that it would be futile to expect any references to the Rapture of the Church in the Old Testament.  However, here are some provocative passages for your personal consideration:
  
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.  -Isaiah 26:19-21

Who are to enter which chambers?  How long are they to be hidden?  (Compare this with John 14:1-3 and come to your own conclusions.)

And there are others:

Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. - Zephaniah 2:3

For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock. -Psalm 27:5

But to me, the most provocative are the consistent patterns - or "types," metaphors, and similes - in the Old Testament:

Pattern is Prologue

It is interesting to notice the patterns that seem to be suggested in the Biblical text.  One of the greatest judgments on the Planet Earth was, of course, the flood during the days of Noah.  It is obvious that there were three groups of people facing that judgment:

1)  Those that perished in the Flood;
2)  Those who were preserved through the Flood, by means of the ark; and
3)  Those who were removed prior to the Flood, namely, Enoch.¹¹  (It can be argued that he was only one person, but so is the Church!¹² It was G. H. Pember who first suggested that Revelation 12:5 might be a reference to the Church.)

Enoch is, for many reasons, one of the most intriguing characters in the Old Testament.  There are also several provocative Jewish traditions regarding Enoch.  He is regarded as having been born on the day the Jews observe Hag Shavout, the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost.  What is also interesting is that, by tradition, he is also believed to have been "translated" (or "raptured") on his birthday.   Since the Church was "born" on this day,¹³ one wonders if we, too, will be "raptured" on its birthday!¹⁴

(As some pre-tribbers love to point out, Enoch wasn't "mid-flood" or "post-flood," he was "pre-flood.")

We all have enjoyed the famous confrontation between Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel's three friends in the fiery furnace in Daniel 3.  Many prophecy buffs view Nebuchadnezzar and the forced worship of his image as a "type" of the Antichrist, and the three Jewish young men as a foreshadowing of the 144,000 miraculously preserved through the "furnace" of the tribulation.  That leaves a provocative question: Where was Daniel himself?  Who might he represent as a type?

Some prophecy buffs see the use of a threshing floor as an idiom alluding to the tribulation.¹⁵  The marvelous romance of Ruth, who becomes the Gentile bride of Boaz, her Kinsman-Redeemer, is seen as an anticipatory type of the Church and her Redeemer.  In the critical threshing floor scene in chapter 3, where is Ruth?  At the feet of her Redeemer.¹⁶  Interesting.

In Genesis 22, Abraham left the donkey and the two young men at the foot of the hill as he and Isaac went up to the top of Moriah for the famous offering of his son.  After the episode concludes with the substitution of the ram, it lists those that then returned to Beersheba:

So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Genesis 22:19

Where's Isaac?  Obviously, Isaac also returned with Abraham and the two young men.  But we are fascinated that the Holy Spirit appears to have edited the person of Isaac out of the record from the time he was offered until he is united with his bride two chapters later!¹⁷  We believe this was deliberate to have the narrative fully conform to the type.

One, of course, should not build doctrine from "types," metaphors, or similitudes.  But we feel they can be instructive and illuminating.

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. -Romans 15:4

I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets. - Hosea 12:10

Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. -2 Timothy 2:15

The legendary John Walvoord used to joke that when he got to heaven, one of the first things he planned to do was to conduct a course on "Remedial Eschatology."  But he admitted that he "wouldn't enjoy it as much because he would have lost his sin nature by then!" 

He recently was called home to be with the Lord he served so faithfully for so many years.  I wonder how he and Walter Martin are getting along

*   *   *

For a more comprehensive review of this controversial topic, see our video, The Rapture: Christianity's Most Preposterous Belief.

This article was originally published in the
February 2003 Personal Update NewsJournal.
For a FREE 1-Year Subscription, click here.

---

**NOTES**

---

1. Titus 2:13.
2. Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:25.
3. 2 Kings 2:1, 11.
4. Acts 8:39.
5. 2 Corinthians 12:2-4.
6. Revelation 4:1.
7. Mark 16:19; Acts 1:9-11; Revelation 12:5.
8. 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
9. Acts 8:39; 2 Corinthians 12:2-4; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; Revelation 12:5.
10. Ephesians 3:3:3-6.
11. Genesis 5:24.
12. 1 Corinthians 12:12,27; Ephesians 33:6, et al.
13. Acts 2:1ff.
14. See our briefing package, The Feasts of Israel, for a review of the prophetic implications of each of the seven feasts of the Torah.
15. Jeremiah 51:33; Isaiah 41:15, 16; Micah 4:12, et al.
16. See our briefing package, The Romance of Redemption, or our Expositional Commentary on the Book of Ruth for a more comprehensive review of the typological implications in this marvelous love story.
17. Genesis 24:62.

    .

[hope]

Thank you, Quix!

[Quix]

Another good Missler article . . . discussion evidence from the 306-373 AD of the Dispy Pre-Mil view of THE RAPTURE/THE GREAT CATCHING AWAY . . . some Quixicated emphases . . .

from

http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/

.

Byzantine Text Discovery:

Ephraem The Syrian

by Chuck Missler

In recent years, many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820 A.D.¹ There have been attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby.

Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.²

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:³

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

This text was originally a sermon called On the Last Times, the Anti-christ, and the End of the World. There are four existing Latin manuscripts (the Parisinus, the Augiensis, the Barberini, and the St. Gallen) ascribed to St. Ephraem or to St. Isidore . Some scholars believe this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century and was derived from the original Ephraem.⁴

The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah.5

This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today.

The validity of any view can only be measured by the Biblical text itself. For a more complete discussion of these issues, see our Audio Book, From Here to Eternity.

This article was originally published in the
June 1995 Personal Update NewsJournal.

George E. Ladd, The Blessed Hope, 1956;
Robert H. Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation, 1973;
John Bray, The Origin of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Teaching, 1980;
Dave MacPherson, The Incredible Cover- Up, 1975, and The Great Rapture Hoax, 1983; are well-known examples.
For a refutation of MacPherson's charges, see Thomas D. Ice, "Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture did not begin with Margaret McDonald", Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (April-June 1990) p. 155-68.

• The citation was found in a footnote in Paul J. Alexander's The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition, University of California Press, Berkeley, CA, 1985, p. 210. Dr. Paul Alexander is probably the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church.
• The English translation of the Latin text in C.P. Caspari's Briefe, Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelater (Christiania, 1890, pp. 208-20) was provided by Cameron Rhoades, instructor of Latin at Tyndale Theological Seminary, Ft. Worth, TX.
• For a complete discussion, see "The Rapture and Pseudo-Ephraem: An Early Medieval Citation", by Thomas D. Ice and Timothy J. Demy, to be published in Bibliotheca Sacra, July-September 1995.
  Also, Grant Jeffrey, Rush to Judgment, Frontier Research Books, Toronto, Canada, 1995.
• The Book of the Cave of Treasures, p. 235, as quoted by Grant Jeffrey in private correspondence.

[Quix]

Certainly.

Thank you for your kind reply.

[CynicalBear]

Great article Quix! Thanks.

[Quix]

Thanks, The one in 575 pushes the Darby nonsense off the cliff. It also makes clear that regardless of Vatican complicity in using such notions to its ends . . . the FACTS ARE

the Dispy Pre-Mil Rapture perspective has been around FROM THE EARLY CHURCH.

This article solidly documents it to 306-373.

Anyone claiming otherwise after that posting will be obviously shown to be dealing in something other than THE TRUTH.

However, some of them seem to have as crazy a DAFFYNITIONARY as the RC’s so I’m not holding my breath expecting honorable, honest, congruent and reasonable dialogue consistent with history or truth any more than they seem to be willing to write consistent with Scripture.

Nor will I be holding my breath waiting for an apology regarding all their harshly very pointedly personal and totally unwarranted, unjustified assaults on such matters.

Such may have become such a !!!TRADITION!!! that even the RM unconsciously ignores them any more. LOL.

[shield]

Please take me off your ping list.

[CynicalBear]

>> Such may have become such a !!!TRADITION!!! that even the RM unconsciously ignores them any more. LOL.<<

They weren’t’ ignored this morning. I got one that was visous. They pulled it and even pulled my reply because I had quoted the post to me.