that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther
Posted on 02/08/2011 11:08:38 AM PST by Gamecock
Basically, all I’m saying, is the original meaning of “sola scriptura” to the 16th C. Reformers was defined as the bible being the Church’s only FINAL/INERRANT authority...it wasn’t saying the Bible is the only authority at all.
Unfortunately some evangelicals and others have taken it to mean that only the bible alone has ANY authority... and have become ignorammi...dumping all the knowledge gleaned by Church history for nearly 2,000 years, running off alone with their bibles (even when they don’t really understand the context and character of the bible...).
Rome officially puts itself-in-(undefined)tradition—on EQUAL footing to scripture, with the Pope having the final say on everything...hence, really the institution of the current Church usurps the bible, becoming an unaccountable authority-unto-itself.
I think it’s important to understand the idea of underlying authorities, with scripture as the final authority over them all, to avoid the charge of “private interpretation” so often leveled by Roman Catholics, as, in the contemporary “independent non-denominational” Church scene, that charge really does have a point...
Because I Love the Bible
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
When Was the Bible Really Written?
Three Reasons for Teaching the Bible [St. Thomas Aquinas]
The Smiting Is Still Implied (God of the OT vs the NT)
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
Friday Fast Fact: The Bible in English
Bible Reading is Central in Conversions to Catholicism in Shangai, Reports Organization
Verses (in Scripture) I Never Saw
5 Myths about 7 Books
Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
Pope calls Catholics to daily meditation on the Bible
What Are the "Apocrypha?"
The Accuracy of Scripture
US Conference of Catholic Bishops recommendations for Bible study
CNA unveils resource to help Catholics understand the Scriptures
The Dos and Don’ts of Reading the Bible [Ecumenical]
Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
U.S. among most Bible-literate nations: poll
Bible Lovers Not Defined by Denomination, Politics
Dei Verbum (Catholics and the Bible)
Vatican Offers Rich Online Source of Bible Commentary
Clergy Congregation Takes Bible Online
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: Mary's Last Words
A Bible Teaser For You... (for everyone :-)
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: New Wine, New Eve
Return of Devil's Bible to Prague draws crowds
Doctrinal Concordance of the Bible [What Catholics Believe from the Bible] Catholic Caucus
Should We Take the Bible Literally or Figuratively?
Glimpsing Words, Practices, or Beliefs Unique to Catholicism [Bible Trivia]
Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?
Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)
Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible
Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
The Church or the Bible
Great post—thanks!!
Hoss
the other obvious refutation of SS is Protestantism itself.
yesterday, we had a thread where good old sola scriptura believers were having at each other over infant baptism. each claimed scriptural authority for their belief. one had to be wrong. who is right the Baptist or the Lutheran?
no one knows how many contradictory sects there are now, 9,000, 16000, 30,000? it gets larger every year.
all claim an infallible book, but no infallible teacher. all oppose historical, orthodox Christianity, many have no clue they do.
you want another battle amongst the SS crowd, mention Calvinism and then stand back and watch the fur fly!
Yup. Homerun. Out of the park.
:D
Hoss
Quote Catholic
Tertullian on disallowing Heretics’ appeal to Sacred Scripture
March 25, 2010
Kevin Author T, Heresy, Sacred Scripture Comments Off
Our appeal [in debating with the heretics], therefore, must not be made to the Scriptures; nor must controversy be admitted on points in which victory will either be impossible, or uncertain, or not certain enough. For a resort to the Scriptures would but result in placing both parties on equal footing, whereas the natural order of procedure requires one question to be asked first, which is the only one now that should be discussed: “With whom lies that very faith to which the Scriptures belong? From what and through whom, and when, and to whom, has been handed down that rule by which men become Christians? For wherever it shall be manifest that the true Christian rule and faith shall be, there will likewise be the true Scriptures and expositions thereof, and all the Christian traditions”
Since this is the case, in order that the truth may be adjudged to belong to us, “as many as walk according to the rule,” which the church has handed down from the apostles, the apostles from Christ, and Christ from God, the reason of our position is clear, when it determines that heretics ought not to be allowed to challenge an appeal to the Scriptures, since we, without the scriptures, prove that they have nothing to do with the Scriptures. For as they are heretics, they cannot be true Christians, because it is not from Christ that they get that which they pursue of their own mere choice, and from the pursuit incur and admit the name of heretics. Thus not being Christians, they have acquired no right to the Christian Scriptures; and it may be very fairly said to them, “Who are you?”
this is Tertullian on Sacred Tradition, the Scriptures and Heretics - “Who are you”!!
from the website quotecatholic
You ridicule what you don't understand. Not all Catholic tradition is Tradition. When we speak of Sacred Tradition, we are speaking of that oral instruction given by Christ (the Word made flesh) directly to the Apostles that is not found in Scripture. Jesus didn't twiddle His Thumbs for 40 days after His Resurrection, He instructed His Apostles... and yet this period receives scant mention in the Written Word... because these are the Traditions Paul is talking about to the Thessalonians. These are the instructions of Christ carried out by His Apostles.
The Pope only has a final say when a final say is needed. For example, in Acts 15... there was much discussion and disagreement among the Apostles before Peter spoke authoritatively.
I understand your concern in your final assertion... however, for the first 1500 years after Christ's Ascension, that is all the world had... and we had unity. When we "reformed" the Church we brought disunity and fractalization to the -enth degree. Truly, this isn't the unity Christ desired for us.
Exactly. What separates us is tradition. The Protestants, in denying Catholic Tradition, have begun their own. Now, they belong to the Baptist tradition, Lutheran tradition, Methodist tradition, et al...
Mom—
I guess it’s like the whole “saint” thing—it takes fallible men to declare that a person is a saint by “canonization” when, really, that has already been done by God almighty IF the person in question was saved.
I suppose God had to wait unt the Council of Trent so that the created could tell the Creator that the words He spoke were His.
That is just laughable. And sad.
Hoss
my friend, you forget Christ established a visible Church and He gave it authority to teach. we have the obligation to be taught, not run off with our own ideas as to what we feel the Scriptures teach. remember, the Church is the “pillar of truth” and has the Holy Spirit protecting it from teaching error.
there is a way that seems right to man, but the end of which is certain death.
no what is sad is trying to tear the Body of Christ into 9,000 different sects in opposition to John 17 and 1 Corinthians 1. what a scandal to the unsaved!!
Sacred Oral Tradition in the Early Church
SACRED ORAL TRADITION ADVOCATED BY THE EARLY CHURCH
Mark J. Bonocore
In the Bible:
2 Thess 2:15: “Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a letter from us.”
Phil 4:9: “Keep on doing what you have learned and received and HEARD and SEEN IN ME. Then the God of peace will be with you.”
1 Corinth 11:2: “I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the Traditions, just as I handed them on to you.”
2 Thess 3:6: “We instruct you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the TRADITION they received from us.”
1 Peter 1:25: “...but the Word of the Lord REMAINS FOREVER. This is the Word that has been PROCLAIMED TO YOU (i.e., orally).”
In the Church Fathers:
ST. IRENAEUS OF LYONS (c. 180 AD):
“So forceful are these arguments that no one should henceforth seek the truth from ANY OTHER SOURCE since it would be simple to get it from THE CHURCH ....On this account are we bound to avoid them, but to make choice of the things pertaining to the Church with utmost diligence, and to lay hold of the TRADITION OF TRUTH ..For how should it be if the Apostles themselves had not left us writing? Would it be necessary [in that case] to follow the course of Tradition which they handed down to those whom they committed the Churches?” (Against the Heresies 3:4:1)
“Though none others know we the disposition of our salvation, than those through whom the Gospel came to us, first heralding it, then by the will of God delivering us the Scriptures, which were to be the foundation and pillar of our faith. ...But when the heretics use Scriptures, as if they were wrong and unauthoritative, and we variable, and the truth could not be extracted from them by those who were IGNORANT OF TRADITION. And when we challenge them in turn with that TRADITION, which is FROM THE APOSTLES, which is guarded by the succession of presbyters in the churches, they oppose themselves to TRADITION, saying they are wiser, not only than those presbyters but even than the Apostles! The TRADITION OF THE APOSTLES manifested, on the contrary, in the whole world, is open in every church to all who seeks the truth ...And since it is a long matter in a work like this to enumerate these successions, we will confute them by pointing to the TRADITION of the greatest and most ancient and universally-known Church founded and constituted at Rome by the two most glorious Apostles, Peter and Paul, a TRADITION which she has had and a faith which she proclaims to all men FROM THOSE APOSTLES.” (Against the Heresies 3:1-3)
“It comes to this, therefore, these men do not consent to either Scripture nor TRADITION.” (Against the Heresies 3:2:2).
TERTULLIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 200):
“We do not take our scriptural teaching from the parables but we interpret the parables according to our teaching.” (Purity 9:1)
“For this reason we should not appeal merely to the Scriptures nor fight our battle on ground where victory is either impossible or uncertain or improbable. For a resort to the Scriptures would but result in placing both parties on an equal footing, whereas the natural order of procedure requires one question to be asked first, which is the only one now that should be discussed. ‘Who are the guardians of the real faith? To whom do the Scriptures belong? By whom and through whom and when and to whom was the committed the doctrine that makes us Christians? For wherever the truth of Christian doctrine and faith clearly abide, there will be also the true Scriptures and the true interpretations and all the true Christian traditions.” (On Prescription Against the Heretics 36)
ORIGEN (c. 220):
“Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the Apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and Apostolic Tradition” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).
ST. CYRIL OF JERUSALEM (c. 350):
“But in learning the Faith and in professing it, acquire and keep only that which is now delivered to you BY THE CHURCH, and which has been built up strongly out of the Scriptures.” (Cat V:12)
Which Scriptures? These:
“Learn also diligently FROM THE CHURCH what are the books of the Old Testament and what are the books of the New.” (Cat IV:33)
Note: St. Cyril is referring to the local church since, in his day, different city-churches recognized different Scriptural canons. And the very fact that he needs to tell his new converts this shows that the Biblical canon was not yet universally established.
ST. ANTHONY OF EGYPT (c. 320):
“Wherefore, keep yourselves all the more untainted by them (the Arians), and observe the TRADITIONS of the fathers, and chiefly the holy faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, which you have learned from the Scripture, and which you have often been put in mind by me.” (Athanasius’ “Life of Anthony” NPNF Vol IV 2nd Series).
ST. ATHANASIUS (c. 330-370):
“Let them (the Arians) tell us from what teacher, or from what TRADITION, they derived those notions concerning the Savior.” (De Decr 13)
“For what OUR FATHERS have DELIVERED, this is true doctrine; and this is truly the token of doctors, to confess the SAME THING with each other, and to vary neither from themselves nor from their fathers; whereas they who do not have this character are not to be called true doctors.” (De Decr 4)
“Laying down their PRIVATE impiety as some sort of rule, they (the Arians) wrest all the Divine oracles (the Scriptures) into accordance with it.” (Orat 1, 52)
“Had they dwelt on these thoughts and recognized the ECCLESIASTICAL (i.e., Church) scope as an ANCHOR for the Faith, they would not have made shipwreck of the faith.” (Orat 3, 58)
ST. BASIL THE GREAT (c. 370)
“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the Tradition of the Apostles, handed on to us in mystery (i.e., Sacrament; the Liturgy of the Mass). . In respect to piety both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the Gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term.” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).
ST. GREGORY NAZIANZUS (c. 370):
“I desire to learn what is the fashion of innovation in things concerning the Church. But since our faith has been proclaimed both in writing AND WITHOUT WRITING, here and in distant parts, in times of danger and of safety, how is it that some make such attempts and others keep silent?” (Ep 101).
“It suffices for proof of our statement that we have a TRADITION coming down from the fathers, an inheritance as it were, by succession FROM THE APOSTLES through the saints who came after them (Against Eunomius 4, 6 on Christ’s nature).
ST. EPIPHANIUS OF SALAMIS (c. 370)
“It is needful also to make use of Tradition, for not everything can be gotten from Sacred Scripture. The holy Apostles handed down some things in the Scriptures, other things in Tradition.” (Medicine Chest Against All Heresies 61:6 [A.D. 375]).
ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (c. 390)
” ‘Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an oral statement or by a letter’ (2 Thess 2:15). Hence it is manifest that they did not deliver all things by Epistle, but many things UNWRITTEN, and in like manner both the one and the other are worthy of credit. Therefore, let us think the TRADITION of the Church also worthy of credit. It is a Tradition, seek no farther.” (Commentary on 2nd Thessalonians NPNF 13:390).
ST. AUGUSTINE OF HIPPO (c. 400)
“Those which we keep, not as being written, but as from TRADITION, if observed by the whole of Christendom, are thereby understood to be committed to us BY THE APOSTLES themselves or plenary Councils, and to be retained as instituted.” (Ep 118).
“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the Apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).
“And if anyone seek for Divine authority in this matter, though what is held by the whole Church, and not as instituted by Councils, but as a matter of invariable custom, is rightly held to have been HANDED DOWN by APOSTOLIC authority.” (On Baptism 24 speaking of infant Baptism).
“[T]he custom [of not rebaptizing converts] ...may be supposed to have had its origin in Apostolic Tradition, just as there are many things which are observed by the whole Church, and therefore are fairly held to have been enjoined by the Apostles, which yet are not mentioned in their writings” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 5:23[31] [A.D. 400]).
Mark J. Bonocore
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from the website philvaz.com
provides the real teaching of the Catholic Fathers
Any final, infallible authority requires circular reasoning--(since logically, no higher authority can validate it but itself), which as you can see, applies to "Sacred Tradition" in the say way you attempted to apply it to scripture.
You can either rely on the written testimony of the Apostles themselves (the bible) or have faith that some (repeatedly, over and over and over) demonstrably corrupt (heard anything about homosexual predator priests being moved around lately??) institution is somehow, in some limited, undefined sense "infallible" in telling you that what (undefined) tradition mixed with the bible....says.
As for me and my house, we'll follow God's word, not that of an old, VERY FALLIBLE, human institution based in the pagan capital of the ancient world.
The writings of the apostles were scripture from the time the ink dried on the page--and didn't need official approval of the Bishop of Rome to become that way. They are the self-identified only final authority, the Word of God--which all of the Church is bound to obey.
Canonization doesn't make men saints, it recognizes saints. It is a way for the Church Militant (the Church on Earth) to recognize those that have gone to Heavenly glory. And why is this important? Because 98% of the Christian world says a creed which includes "the communion of saints." They are part of the same Kingdom and same body of Christ and we venerate their memory and emulate their lives as Paul exhorted his readers to do with his own example.
So says Pope AnalogReigns I
the best part of this thread is Gamecock is now on record as affirming the following Catholics as Christian:
Irenaeus
Tertullian
Cyril of Jerusalem
Gregory of Nyssa
Basil the Great
Athanasius
Augustine
Origen
next time he attacks the Catholic Faith, we can quotes at him from those he stipulates are Christian.
please provide the “self identified” canon of Scripture you speak of.
also, “bound to obey”
who is obeying Scripture concerning infant baptism, the Baptist or the Lutheran?
do we flip a coin or do we say doctrine doesn’t matter?
who is obeying Scripture, the Reformed or the Methodist when it come to 5 point Calvinism?
again flip a coin or doctrine doesn’t matter?
who is obeying Scripture when it comes to the Eucharist, the Anglican or the Presbyterian?
Oneness or Trinity?
when all is said and done, your way leads everyone to be their own Pope, with a requirement to obey only what THEY think the Bible teaches. it denies Matthew 28 where Jesus gave the Church AUTHORITY to teach, it also gives us a requirement to believe and pass this teaching on.
this is what has happened for 2,000 years!
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