Posted on 02/08/2011 11:08:38 AM PST by Gamecock
I can see that this conversation has come to a dead end. Anything further would just be repetitious.
As always, thank you for the thoughtful exchange. :)
**but, let me ask you, when Jesus was baptized by John, who’s voice was it that was heard saying “this is my son.....” was Jesus throwing His voice like a ventriliquist?**
Even trinitarians believe that Jesus Christ has two natures: human (mind, soul, and body), and divine. I, and those like minded, believe, that the Father IN Christ was the source of all things divine. Was John the baptist to accept the Christ’s word without a supernatural sign? It is surely childs play for the only God there has ever been to do three things at once. I mean looks at a TV: it has an physical existance, can produce sound, and an image, but is useless without electricity, which is invisible (unless it is burning or powering something).
John 1:1 states that ‘IN THE BEGINNING was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God’. God does not have a ‘beginning’, but his magnificent plan did. That chapter 1 intro culminates with John 1:14 (the Word was made flesh) is to be read with the understanding of the mystery of the Godhead, and there is a multitude of other scriptures that harmonize with it.
That verse is explaining that God’s Spirit, God’s mind, even his very righteous plan for mankind, was made audibly and visibly manifest to man (audibly and visibly; remember the TV analogy), by meeting mankind on their very mortal level. The physical house (”destroy this temple, and I will raise it up”) was mortal. The Father GAVE the Christ power to take his body up. The main theme repeated over and over in John is the fact that the Father (Spirit) is in the Son (flesh w/a soul, created by God), and that the FATHER is the source of ALL things divine.
God is Christ, only if you’re referring to the Father dwelling in him, which is undeniable fact. Most notably in John chapters 5, 8, 10, 14, 15, and 16, Jesus Christ spoke a great deal about ‘the Father’ in him, teaching him all things, telling him what to say, doing the ‘works’, etc. When speaking of God dwelling in himself, the Christ calls him the Father, not the Holy Ghost. (As we know, the Holy Ghost is “..the Comforter..which PROCEEDETH FROM the Father..”. John 15:26)
IN those chapters are some very clear claims by the Christ:
John 5:19 “..the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..” The Man that God SENT (God doesn’t need to be sent anywhere, he’s already omnipresent) received instruction on EVERYTHING. God doesn’t need instruction on anything, for he knows ALL things.
John 5:26 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he GIVEN to the SON to have life in himself.” God can’t be given anything he doesn’t already have. God is the giver of life, not the receiver.
John 5:27 “And hath GIVEN him (the SON) AUTHORITY to execute judgement also, because he is the Son of man.” God is the GIVER of authority, not the receiver.
John 6:37 “All that the Father hath GIVEN me shall come to me..”.
John 8:28 “..as my Father hath TAUGHT me, I speak these things.”
John 10:27-30 “My sheep hear my voice.... My Father, which GAVE them me is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one (by now you should see the flow of power consistantly coming from the Father to the Son)
John 14 is the ‘heavy iron’ of this revelation of the Godhead. “I am the way, the truth ,and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye KNOW him. and have SEEN him.......he that hath SEEN me hath SEEN the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS (REMEMBER JOHN 1:1??) that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME(HELLLOOOO?), he doeth the works.” vss 6-10.
Red letter bibles show ‘the words of Christ’ in red, but don’t differentiate when he speaks as a man, or when he speaks as the Almighty God. For example, as mortal man: “ I thirst”, “I of mine own self do nothing..”, and “But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only” (the ‘2nd and 3rd persons’ don’t know??); but as God the Father: “ I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven”.
The Father and the Son are fused. Also, after the resurrection, there are no mortal man comments (”take this cup from me”, a cry indicating the limits of the flesh). Christ’s will of the flesh died and did not ‘resurrect’. Jesus Christ did NOT correct Thomas for calling him “My Lord and my God”. He, along with the other disciples, were enlightened 6 chapters earlier; thoroughly taught that the Father was in him and he in the Father, and that they were one.
Matthew 28:19, “..baptizing them in the name (singular) of the Father (comma) and of the Son (comma) and of the Holy Ghost..”, is often used as the scriptural ‘centerpiece’ of trinitarianism.
What is the NAME? Read on.
Jesus Christ was addressing his disciples. They KNEW who he was. And they KNEW that the NAME (singular) was one.
Jesus made it clear that he INHERITTED his name, saying that he came in his “Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his OWN name, him ye shall receive” (John 5:43).
“...as he hath by INHERITANCE obtained a better name than they.” Heb. 1:4
Jesus Christ declared that the Holy Ghost would be sent in HIS name. John 14:26
That’s why the apostles baptized in the NAME of JESUS.
**you don’t realize that the Catholic Church received the doctrine of the Trinity directly from the Apostles, as the Church Fathers testify.**
The original apostles didn’t teach ‘three persons in the Godhead’; never used the terms ‘first person’, ‘second person’, or ‘third person’. They didn’t repeat the command of Matt. 28:19 when they baptized: they obeyed the command, BECAUSE they knew the name was Jesus.
**what do you believe happened to the true Church from the 1st century to the 19th century - didn’t anyone understand who God was all that time?**
Just like the scribes and Pharisees controlled the temple, the mainstream religious media has controlled much of the teaching, probably within just decades after the death of the apostles. The devil wasn’t going to be called an ‘angel of light’ and not take credit for anything even remotely ‘Christian’. The ‘7 churches’ in Revelation make it clear such great trials were nearly overwhelming, with only two where repentance is not mentioned, and of those two, Smyrna indicates a literal threat of the saints being martyred.
All through the centuries there has been ‘the few there be that find it’, the ‘sheep that hear my voice’. Even a Catholic missionary in the dark ages (circa 1100; can’t remember his name) came across some people in central Europe, saying, “they are unwarlike people, some of which could quote the entire gospel of John from memory”. ( my wife took our old ‘60s era encyclopedia set to Goodwill, leaving me without that reference).
When you state that "Catholic tradition is that Mary had no other children BY Jesus" you have committed a sin against the Spirit by alleging Jesus and Mary had an incestuous relationship. This is absurd and blasphemous.
Such a remark clearly demonstrates your view of Christianity is one of sexual perversion and demands the strongest rebukes. The Lord will have you answer for this hatred of Christianity exhibited in your post. I bet some of your pagan brethren feel no shame at your remark and support your blasphemy.
Catholic Tradition denies the Authority and In-errancy of the Scriptures. Let alone to deny the primacy of Scripture itself.
Thus the goddess of Maryanaism will come back, along with others as more and more Scriptures are Abandoned.
Good Day, and Goodbye
The salient fact you need to grasp is to see that our discussion involves a journey to eternal salvation not some imaginary debate which has captured your imagination.
The Church under the inspiration of e Holy Spirit complied scripture for the unwashed to study and the Tradition compliments the scripture.
This magisterium allows for interpretation free from sinful prideful error which inundates the apostate interpretations exhibited by your ilk.
thank you for your response.
i seem to pick up in your answer that Jesus was not really a man, but the Father occupying a human body. am i correct? does Jesus exist now, or is He back to being the Father since He is in heaven?
**i seem to pick up in your answer that Jesus was not really a man, but the Father occupying a human body. am i correct?**
As mentioned a previous post, Jesus Christ made it quite clear that the Father was the source of his words, wisdom, and miracles.
Peter does a nice job of explaining the Godhead in his witness to Cornelius and household in Acts 10: “..preaching peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea,... How GOD ANNOINTED Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was WITH him,.....whom they SLEW and hanged on a tree; him GOD raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;....it is he which was ORDAINED of GOD to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that THROUGH his NAME whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
Some important things to notice from that passage:
Jesus Christ was ANNOINTED “with the HOLY GHOST and with POWER”, making it clear that he didn’t have the divine ability to do any of those things on his own. But the man Christ Jesus could and did lament the thought of dying, and did die. (restaining my emotions, this so big)
God doesn’t weaken at all, and thus certainly can’t die. “Him GOD raised up”, “raised up from the dead, by the glory of the Father” (Romans 6:4).
“ORDAINED of God to be the Judge”. An ordination is given.
The Christ RECEIVED the annointing, the resurrection, and the ordination. “All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and earth.” That’s how Jesus Christ is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
i’m sorry, can you dissect your belief into plainer language for me. The Church has always taught and believed that Jesus was always fully God and He became fully man when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary. is this your belief? that, i think can be answered yes or no, just so i don’t misunderstand.
also, do you believe Jesus is eternal, or is He now back to being the Father?
also, who was the one in history that re-discovered this truth about God after the apostacy that crept into the early Church?
thank you for the thoughtful discussion.
Well, I thought Peter’s explanation to Cornelius was simple, but I’ll try to explain in other words.
**The Church has always taught and believed that Jesus was always fully God and He became fully man when the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary. is this your belief?**
To answer that yes or no doesn’t make it clear since I am trying to show you that the divine nature has never been three, separate, eternal beings.
With the almost countless references in scripture of God referring to himself, and prophets referring to him, IN the singular (I’m not going to even try to count the I, me, mine, myself, he, his, himself), anything in the plural form is just making it clear that he is just sharing himself with his creation.
Mary was used to help make the tabernacle of flesh that God would put a soul in (God made that part 100%), and would dwell in (remember,”The Father that dwelleth in me..”). The flesh and soul was not left in the grave (Acts 2:27,31). What Mary helped to make was given an earthly mind like you and me, that would says things such as “take this cup from me..”, “I thirst”, or “my Father is greater than I”. What Mary helped make could not survive the cross, and died. But of course, God raised up Christ and dwells in him again, as he did before the cross.
Jesus Christ is the God-created, sinless man, filled without measure with the one and only Spirit of the living God, and is THE image of that invisible God.
When someone is REALLY and TRULY filled with the Holy Ghost, the recipient has such a supernatural experience that he/she realizes that another ‘force’ has moved in, giving that person a dual nature similar to Jesus Christ. The Lord explains this in John 14:16-26 to his disciples when talking about the coming of the ‘Comforter’ (which is really “Christ in you, the hope of glory”.), with this verse in particular:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I IN YOU”. John 14:20
**also, who was the one in history that re-discovered this truth about God after the apostacy that crept into the early Church?**
The truth has always been available, but few there be that find it. As I said, the 7 churches show a wide range of persecution. Even John Calvin saw it fit to execute a man (who’s actual views, I haven’t studied, but will sometime) that didn’t believe in trinitarian doctrine.
Chaotic church behavior and doctrine muddling didn’t wait long to get started, just look at the rebukes Paul gives in his epistles, 1 Corinthians and Galatians.
Hopefully this makes what I believe somewhat clearer, whether you agree with it or not.
Lord bless
Zuriel,
it does make what you believe clearer. obviously you know i disgree strongly with what you said, but i must compliment you on your willingness to honestly share your faith without name calling and rancor. this attribute is almost unheard of amongst the various trinitariran believers who post on FR. May the Lord bless you as well.
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