The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[Cronos]

This from the same person who posted/repeated a lie that Stalin's Georgian Orthodox seminary was run by Jesuits!!

Cronos: :"What rot are you talking about? Josef Stalin was born in Georgia, at sixteen, he received a scholarship to a Georgian Orthodox seminary, where he rebelled against the imperialist and religious order"
Lera: "He attended Theological Seminary of Tiflis, Georgia"
Cronos: he was Georgian Orthodox, this was a Georgian Orthodox seminary -- Jesuits generally don't set up Orthodox seminaries......

And he was from Georgia, the ex-Soviet state in the Caucasus, not the American one, you know.

Stop posting lies like Jesuits taught (and ran a Georgian Orthodox seminary to boot!) Josef Stalin

[Cronos]

Devils DO exist. The simplest way to know if there is a spirit at play is to pray to God, call on God, Jesus Christ and firmly tell the demon Vade retro Satana: Step back/go away Satan

[count-your-change]

Paul approved of those in charge? Where so and how is it “approval”??

“I think it was said of Herod by a contemporary that it was better to be Herod’s pig than his subject.”

Variations of the saying are attributed to Augustus.

[Quix]

If you or any other RC ,P> is claiming that the STATISTICS compiles over several years and cited here:

http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/RevealingStatistics.html#Sec4

are only from 41 people,

THAT IS A BRAZEN, UNMITIGATED FALSEHOOD.

I don't recall what the total samples would be over the several studies but IIRC, it would be several thousand, if not many thousand.

[Quix]

I would also note . . . that in terms of solid statistical results, the sample size is not near as important as whether the sample is REPRESENTATIVE of the population in terms of all the variables being measured and in terms of holding all the other variables equal or random.

[Cronos]

In what way did Hindu or Buddhist thought — neither of which seems to make either mind or reason even topical — shape this outcome?

I personally believe that it did influence the thought process -- a return to nothingness. It is quite a difficult concept to think of 0 and imaginary numbers (-1, i, pi etc.) and would not make sense to the practical Romans, while the Greeks were more interested in purity of numbers.

There are quite a few myths about Pythagoras, so it's difficult to separate myth from fiction. Even Egyptian thought can probably be classified as "western" -- because the entire Mediterranean basin was really one "continent" until the advent of Islam.

No worries for the little monologue -- I like reading history and linguistics. But the key point I would like to make is that even taken coldly logically, in my opinion Judeo-Christianity makes more "sense" than any other religion bar Zoroastrianism

[Alamo-Girl]

You're not missing a thing, dearest sister in Christ!

[Cronos]

1. a. Whatever a poster says is his opinion is his opinion, to extrapolate it to all the members of his religious group is like me taking the views of an Oneness Pentecostal and saying all Protestants believe that -- it's silly.
1.b. --> Mark hasn't ever said that "scripture contains errors" -- he has just pointed out that the Bible being an inanimate non-decision making entity is neither fallible nor infallible. However, he HAS pointed out that it is inerrant, i.e. without error. No inanimate non-decision making entity can be fallible/infallible -- that word indicates a decision making capability. however, it can be errant/inerrant AND, the Bible IS inerrant.
1.c. --> I've posted you a link to what The Church teaches -- and those are pretty clear (see post 2471 above)

2. You posted a link to an internet poll of 41 people and you think that you can extrapolate that to say 1.2 billion people think that way? That's stupid, I'm sorry to say

3. I posted a link to Catholic doctrine online and you say that you don't believe what the Church puts in writing, yet you'll believe an MSM like the Times of London? Especially when the article is wrong and only quotes excerpts from the original bishops articles and out of context -- read my post 2479 for more details

4. I posted what Dei Verbum ACTUALLY says (This is what Dei Verbum actually says: "it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error", and " For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error " --> this is NOT quoted in the Times of london article, they only refer to it and give their own interpretation of it" --> refer my post 2571 for what Dei Verbum ACTUALLY says

You aren't even reading Dei verbum yourself but quoting from a misquote. REad it if you want to posit serious scholarship instead of hearsay.

Let me repeat this

2. You posted a link to an internet poll of 41 people and you think that you can extrapolate that to say 1.2 billion people think that way?


And, let me repeat what Dei Verbum actually says once more so that you actually READ it

1. Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit,
2. it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings
3. God speaks in Sacred Scripture through men in human fashion, (6) the interpreter of Sacred Scripture, in order to see clearly what God wanted to communicate to us, should carefully investigate what meaning the sacred writers really intended, and what God wanted to manifest by means of their words.....no less serious attention must be given to the content and unity of the whole of Scripture if the meaning of the sacred texts is to be correctly worked out..
4. The Church has always venerated the divine Scriptures just as she venerates the body of the Lord, since, especially in the sacred liturgy, she unceasingly receives and offers to the faithful the bread of life from the table both of God's word and of Christ's body.
5. Therefore, like the Christian religion itself, all the preaching of the Church must be nourished and regulated by Sacred Scripture. For in the sacred books, the Father who is in heaven meets His children with great love and speaks with them;
6. For the Sacred Scriptures contain the word of God and since they are inspired really are the word of God; and so the study of the sacred page is, as it were, the soul of sacred theology.

Get it?

If you are in any way seriously discussing, you have to admit that an internet, unscientific poll of 41 people is hardly any better than a show of hands at a discussion club and extrapolating that to 1.2 billion people is sheer stupidity.

Secondly, if you in any way want to display serious scholarship, read the Dei verbum (link above) or read the excerpts I gave you. If you want to read the REAL article that the Times of London distorts, you can download it here

[Alamo-Girl]

I've never read any CAtholic saying the Church was the author.

I have - many times on this forum, e.g. "we wrote it."

It's always put that the Church collected and preserved scripture -- and that is the fact. The Church was the instrument by which canon was compiled.

Your words are chosen carefully and accurately ("collected" "preserved" "instrument") - you are not failing to give God the glory. And I find that encouraging.

Thank you, dear brother in Christ!

[Alamo-Girl]

That seems right to me, too, dear sister in Christ.

[Cronos]

Thanks RM. HD -- note that I pointed out that your's post's conclusions were non-sensical. An internet poll where anyone can vote, and one in which just 41 people voted does not constitute anything better than someone just saying "oooh... oooh". Also, quoting from a MSM article that does not even report correctly is also incorrect.

Your posts until then had had serious thought behind it

[count-your-change]

“However, this is something that needs to be said: a declaration of heresy or excommunication is not a condemnation to hell by the Church. It is the Pauline expulsion from the Church by those who would not act as Christians. It is rarely done”

That said, what does this from the Catechism mean in light of the above?

“1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.”617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs”

Heresy is a mortal sin, No? and death in a state of automatic excommunication? Well, you tell me...

[Cronos]

Scripture does not show God predestining anyone to damnation

one just has to read Ezekiel 33 to realise how wrong the Calvinist false doctrine of double-predestination is.

And the OPC with it's other errors also believes this non-biblical doctrine and furthermore, the OPC condemns as damnable heretics Methodists and Pentecostals (and other Arminians) who do not follow this non-scriptural OPC teaching:

In fact the OPC says this about those who deny the non-scriptural double-predestination, God pre-damns people idea of the followers of Calvin. Hence they condemn followers of Christ like Methodists/Pentecostals etc. here is a quote from the OrthodoPresbyterianC site

Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....

The Bible teaches that Christ did his atoning work on behalf of his elect people, and no others.....

Since the teachings of Arminianism are contrary to Scripture, they are manifestly false. They are serious perversions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Are Arminian preachers heretics? In a sense, yes,

Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

the OPC with it’s double-predestination seems to willingly cause it’s cultists to plumb the depths of despair — since they do not believe in repentence, then anyone who fails then is told by the OPC that they were never Christian.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Let's see.

1) I have a Catholic on this site tell me the scriptures contain errors (several times) and post the references . You ignore that.

2) I post a link to Catholic Answers that shows 40% do not believe in the inerrancy of scripture and this is illustrated by their answers. You ignore that.

3) I post an article by the Times of London that arrives at the same conclusion and you said that is wrong.

4) I post the Dei Verbum which is quoted in the Times of London and clearly shows a transition from the inerrant word of God to the Church. And your response is this is just a bunch of what the MSM says?!?

So much for serious scholarship.

Your excellent evidence once again reveals the stubborn fact that the RCC says one thing, then another, and yet another, all depending on the phase of the moon and the time of day.

For every statement of doctrine, Rome can and does produce an opposing statement of doctrine, equally affirmed.

No wonder Rome grants thousands of annulments each year. Now they're married. Now they're not.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Read your Bible, Cronos. You appear stuck on one opinion of one person.

And like the pope, that person is not infallible.

[metmom]

For every statement of doctrine, Rome can and does produce an opposing statement of doctrine, equally affirmed.

It's really rather convenient.

When they're discussing Catholic doctrine with someone, no matter what the non-Catholic says, they're always wrong.

And the Catholic can *prove* it with quotes from the CCC to back himself (or herself) up.

[Cronos]

Dr E, an OPCer: No Protestant damns to hell any other Christian

The OrthodoxPresbyterianC: Is Arminianism a damnable heresy? Yes.

hmmm....

So, as an OPCer, do you believe that

Arminianism is indeed a heresy,....
Are Arminian preachers heretics?
Is Arminianism a damnable heresy?.

Arminianism is the school of thought of the Methodists and Pentecostals and Baptists among others.

You can find more of it here: http://classicalarminianism.blogspot.com/2009/11/favorite-calvinistic-proof-texts-acts.html

You can see the errors of Calvinistic pre-destination by reading Acts:

“44The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, “’I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’” 48And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

The Gentiles believed, and were appointed for eternal life - , this is Acts 13, and Acts 10 & 11 discusses the opening of the kingdom to the Gospel.



This hurts the Calvinist OPCers who want to control so much that they post articles like this where they say that Methodists etc. preach a satanic gospel

[daniel1212]

There is some truth to the statement, but the Reformation was a process, yet in need of continuance, as many things from Rome that had to be unlearned, and it was those who in conscience toward God dissented from the status quo, RC or Protestant, that were most notable leaders.

And evangelical faith, despite or partly because of its diversity, was largely responsible for the moral reformation and great revivals that worked to make America the a Christian nation in the degree that it was. And rejection of Christian faith and morals is costing it greatly in souls, lives and money.