The Not So Secret Rapture

reformed.org ^ | W. Fred Rice

[topcat54]

Evangelical book catalogs promote books such as Planet Earth: The Final Chapter, The Great Escape, and the Left Behind series. Bumper stickers warn us that the vehicle’s occupants may disappear at any moment. It is clear that there is a preoccupation with the idea of a secret rapture. Perhaps this has become more pronounced recently due to the expectation of a new millennium and the fears regarding potential Y2K problems. Perhaps psychologically people are especially receptive to the idea of an imminent, secret rapture at the present time. Additionally, many Christians are not aware that any other position relative to the second coming of Jesus Christ exists. Even in Reformed circles there are numerous people reading these books. Many of these people are unaware that this viewpoint conflicts with Scripture and Reformed Theology.

[metmom]

You were the one stating in post 1149...

“No. All we have to do is consider the ones explicitly mentioned. Anything that is not condemned is OK.

When you start listing things as forbidden that God has not said are forbidden, and apply that list to others, there is no stopping you. You have now crossed into the land of Pharisaism.”

and now you’re rationalizing prohibiting stuff based on principle and accusing ME of Pharisaism?

That’s rich.

[presently no screen name]

Do you want to have a cigar?

Why didn't you offer me the chocolate cake?

Not at all. You can be weak without trying to be like me.

I don't want to be like you, I want to be like Jesus.

There's nothing in that passage about whether or not one can enjoy a cigar. There are general statements in the Bible about how we ought to care for our bodies for Christ's sake, and there are specific lists of morally objectionable activities (adultery, murder, etc), but there is nothing specific about the original matters that were raised (drinking and smoking). And there is certainly nothing in the Bible about some automatic abuse of a thing by the members because of the pastor.

Perhaps, this is a 'blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed' moment. It doesn't have to be spelled out for me, I have an inner knowing of what edifies me or what doesn't.

You didn't respond to what you claim is 'my obsession'. I'd like to hear what it is.

if I had a piece of chocolate cake in the house, I'd have it - for some reason I think I deserve it right now! ;) Ah, works righteousness.

For me, patience. ;)

[topcat54]

I’ve seen lay Catholics excuse in excess in themselves what that Catholic priest does in moderation.

But abuse is sin, and ultimately it's not the priest's or pastor's fault. If the priest/pastor knew about it they would condemn it. If they didn't then they would be culpable.

The justification ...

Men use all kinds of excuses for their sin. Sometimes that excuse involves others (my father beat me as a child so I rob banks). It's rarely justified.

[boatbums]

8 8 Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

Our hearts are clean before God because we have been made holy and pure through faith in Jesus Christ.

Acts 15:9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God.

All who share the gospel with others bring the true peace that passes all understanding - it is a peace with God through faith in Christ.

Acts 10:36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.

10 Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, 9 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 10 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward will be great in heaven. Thus they persecuted the prophets who were before you. 11 Blessed are you when they insult you and persecute you and utter every kind of evil against you (falsely) because of me.

When we suffer persecution for the cause of Christ we are truly happy and blessed and count it all joy because we are partakers of his suffering for us. But suffering is not a work we must do in order to be saved.

I Cor. 1:5-7 For just as we share abundantly in the sufferings of Christ, so also our comfort abounds through Christ. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort.

13 11 12 "You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

A neat thing about salt, it never loses its saltiness. Neither will we ever lose our position in Christ which is through faith in Him.

John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

14 You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house. 16 Just so, your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father.

All who put their trust in Christ should also live lives that glorify God and so their light shines on the Gospel of Christ who gave his life for us that we shall be made alive in him.

John 8:12 When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

And so on. Notice the recurring theme here that Jesus includes in every line? Salvation is conditional. Verse 13 is very explicit. When the salt loses its flavour (or the conditions are no longer there), the salt is gotten rid of - or salvation is not given

Rather I notice the recurring misunderstanding that comes from first thinking salvation is conditional upon the works and merits of man rather than by grace through faith. When we are in Christ by faith we are never lost, cast out or plucked out of his hands. We HAVE everlasting life because he has given it to us who place our trust in him. The fundamental difference we have is in "What must a man do to be saved?" Our answer is, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:31)

John 1: the adopted people (ie all men, not just the Jews) were given the power, or the right to become children of God. Not that all of them are. Of course not.

Of course. Only those who by faith receive Christ are born again into the family of God. We are his children by faith.

Rom. 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 8: Those who are led by the Spirit are the children of God. Yes. When we no longer are led by the Spirit, but by other fascinations, we are no longer children of God. A condition fully agreeing with the Beatitudes.

Those who are led by the Spirit and accept Christ are then indwelt by that Spirit and he is "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory." Eph. 1:4

Galatians 3: Children of God through faith, clothing yourself in Christ. If you cast off the clothing of Christ, you are no longer a child of God. The last line says that they are heirs to the promise (of God). Heirs don't always collect.

What are you implying that God will not deliver on his promises? The beauty of the promises of God is that he will ever remain faithful, we cannot cast off what is within us.

I Pet. 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 John 3: You omitted the first line which says that the Father bestowed love upon us so that we may be called the children of God. Further in the chapter, John also runs through some conditions.

Salvation is conditioned upon our faith, our trusting in him, our resting in his precious promises, not on our goodness or merit. That is pure grace, unadulterated.

I John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

My point? People may refer to themselves as children of God, yet not meet these and other conditions laid upon us by Christ. I cannot say, nor can any man, who is saved and who is not saved, but we have the instructions laid upon us by Christ and those who repudiate them certainly incrase their odds of being repudiated by Christ (Matthew 25). When people say that they "know" that they are saved, this goes against almost continuous message of Christ that God is love, yet salvation is conditional. We must run the race until the very end. Just like the pickers in the vineyard, even those who come late but are accepted by the master will get a full day's wage ie salvation. But if you are not in the vineyard at the end of your day, you will not.

As long as you rest upon your own merit and good works to save you or keep you saved you are NOT really trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior. Salvation is not earned or deserved, it is GRACE. Until a person really gets that through their head and heart, they will never know the joy of God's salvation and they will never have eternal life no matter how good they think they are.

[boatbums]

What is foolish is reading one set of promises in isolation from the rest of the promises, and the explanation of the real meaning of those promises. Some folks, for example, read Genesis 17 as if the New Testament didn’t exist or was irrelevant. That was not the approach of the apostles who interpreted the promises in the new covenant context, once for all time. Reading the Bible “dispensationally” is foolishness.

Well then, how about giving us your "reading" of Jeremiah 31, 32 and 33. Do you believe God is speaking of the "church" here or of Israel?

[topcat54]

In your opening comments you said:

And those that are Holy Spirit filled see honoring God is honoring His Word … If I am not my own, why would I do anything that HE who is in me wouldn't? If I did, it would be to satisfy my own wants/desires.

Implying that anyone who drinks or smokes wouldn't be doing what Jesus would do. In fact you made a number of comments that sounded very absolutist wrt behavior, for you and others. Later you modified you view to say “for me.” which is fine. But you didn't start off that way.

What is 'this obsession that grips me'?

Perhaps the need to abstain from things adiaphora, and see that same behavior in others. Do you consider it possible for smokers or drinkers to be Christian brethren? Or are they not “honoring the Holy Spirit?”

[topcat54]

Well then, how about giving us your "reading" of Jeremiah 31, 32 and 33. Do you believe God is speaking of the "church" here or of Israel?

The focus of all prophecy is Jesus Christ, not Israel or the Church per se. IOW, the Bible is Christocentric, not Israelocentric. So, if you turn to a prophecy and ask, “how can I see Israel in this prophecy,” rather than, “how can I see Jesus in this prophecy,” you're starting off on the wrong foot.

So, how do you see Jesus in Jeremiah? After this we can talk about Israel if necessary.

[presently no screen name]

and now you’re rationalizing prohibiting stuff based on principle and accusing ME of Pharisaism?......That’s rich.

Accusing others - what a pastime it is for some.

[boatbums]

“I do not believe that. Anyone can claim anything on the internet.”

These life-long ex-Catholics are remarkably ignorant about Catholicism.

How does someone get to be a "life-long ex-Catholic"? What I think remarkable is how some life-long Catholics cannot fathom how anyone could leave, yet leave we have and for reasons you either cannot or will not accept. But a free country it is, regardless, praise God.

[metmom]

Romans 8:1-4 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

[metmom]

God sees the righteousness of the Beatitudes in us because of our faith in Christ.

We are clothed in Christ.

If we are judged by our works, then we still pass because all our dead works, sins, have been forgiven. The only thing left to judge us on is the good works that God foreordained for us to walk in.

[boatbums]

Smoking is a leading cause of lung cancer, but that is not the only form of this disease that has been linked to this habit. If a person smokes tobacco, they are also increasing their risk for other cancers, such as:

•Mouth
•Oesophagus
•Throat
•Tongue
•Voice Box

In addition to these cancers, smoking can also increase a person’s risk of developing the following types of cancer:

•Anus
•Bladder
•Cervix
•Kidney
•Liver
•Pancreas
•Penis
•Stomach
•Vulva

From: http://safety.lovetoknow.com/Dangers_of_Cigarette_Smoking

[MarkBsnr]

How did God judge Lot?

Let us see the wisdom of 2 Peter 2:

4 2 3 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but condemned them to the chains of Tartarus and handed them over to be kept for judgment;

5 4 and if he did not spare the ancient world, even though he preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, together with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the godless world; 6 and if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (to destruction), reducing them to ashes, making them an example for the godless (people) of what is coming; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man oppressed by the licentious conduct of unprincipled people 8 (for day after day that righteous man living among them was tormented in his righteous soul at the lawless deeds that he saw and heard), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the devout from trial and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

10 5 and especially those who follow the flesh with its depraved desire and show contempt for lordship. 6 Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to revile glorious beings,

11 7 whereas angels, despite their superior strength and power, do not bring a reviling judgment against them from the Lord.

Both Noah and Lot were Judged to be righteous in the eyes of God, in the middle of unrighteous people. How were they righteous? By their righteous deeds in the middle of unrighteous behaviour. This whole chapter shows the condemnation of those who commit unrighteous deeds. Thank you for pointing this out to me once again.

God does use the unbeliever, the heretic and the pagan to strengthen Christian beliefs, doesn't He?

[MarkBsnr]

So far, they're amateur ex-Catholics. None that I see good enough to be a pro.

Admittedly. Tempests in backwards unlettered teapots. And very very odd recently invented innovative twists on very old heresies provide the backbone for the language used in these tempests.

[MarkBsnr]

Galatians 5:16-26 16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

25If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Once again, Christianity is hightlighted by those on the outside of it. Do you realize that you have posted yet again, yet another Pauline works based salvation? Or rather, loss of salvation from deeds? This is the Catholic view and has been for 2000 years. Is it confusing, these innovative theologies of men which sprang from the ruins of the Reformation and the rubble of the Restoration?

[MarkBsnr]

One other thing I’ve learned about Catholics after living and working with them, is that nobody can tell them anything.

We prefer Christ and His Church; thank you for noticing.

[boatbums]

And I confess that I ate a pint of Ben&Jerry’s New York Super Fudge Chunk tonight after supper. We all have what we affectionately call our “indulgences” and as long as it’s not every night after supper, I’m ok with it. Some people, however, have “addictive personalities” and for them one little drink turns into a binge so they cannot even have that one drink. The same with most every other thing in our lives that can control us.

Metmom’s original comment had to do with the example of pastors over their flock and how someone could rationalize or justify their actions based on the actions of one they look up to. Personally, I think someone in a position of this kind should be an example, and a good one, to all those within their service. We each have to answer before God for how we conduct our lives and those who are in ministry have a higher standard than we do mainly because of the example they set. I don’t think Metmom is trying to insist on anything other than this way of thinking regarding the impact we make on others who look up to us.

[MarkBsnr]

As long as you rest upon your own merit and good works to save you or keep you saved you are NOT really trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior. Salvation is not earned or deserved, it is GRACE. Until a person really gets that through their head and heart, they will never know the joy of God's salvation and they will never have eternal life no matter how good they think they are.

Wow; you are speaking to different points than I posted.

Firstly, you have omitted speaking to the Beatitudes except for a non answer of Matthew 5:8. and a wrong answer to Matthew 5:13. Salt can and does lose its seasoning and was of concern in those times - contaminated by dirty water or foreign objects or rodent feces or contaminated by other metals. Salt was carried by the men in little pouches and when a pact was made, they exchanged a pinch of salt and they mixed it into their own pouches. There was such a thing as a salt covenant which was considered unbreakable. Secondly, you speak of should and so on. You speak of inheritance as a guarantee that you will receive it. I showed you the conditions spoken of by Jesus and you have ignored them in your post. You speak of God's promise but you do not speak of man's responsibility for receiving that inheritance. Jesus does. You must do these things and among them is have faith.

I keep saying that man is offered salvation by the Grace of God, but he can walk away from that inheritance by simply repudiating the commands of Jesus.

As long as you rest upon your own merit and good works to save you or keep you saved you are NOT really trusting in Jesus Christ as Savior. Salvation is not earned or deserved, it is GRACE. Until a person really gets that through their head and heart, they will never know the joy of God's salvation and they will never have eternal life no matter how good they think they are.

Perhaps sometime I could get you to understand the Catholic, Christian, Biblical (same thing) theology of the salvation of Christ. Your paragraph here does not reflect it at all. And it is a very wrong expression of the Faith. And it, by itself, is unScriptural. It is not the teaching of Jesus. The Sermon on the Mount is a good place to start to understand Jesus.

[presently no screen name]

Implying that anyone who drinks or smokes wouldn't be doing what Jesus would do.

My reply was to your You can be weak without trying to be like me. I said I want to be like Jesus. Did that bother you?

In fact you made a number of comments that sounded very absolutist wrt behavior, for you and others.

Are you scrutinizing my posts to put me in some kind of sect? Don't bother - I'm in His Hands - right where He wants me. "My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand".

Later you modified you view to say “for me.” which is fine. But you didn't start off that way. .

Yes, I did start off that way. Because you didn't 'see' it or it wasn't 'written', doesn't mean it wasn't there. Scripture speaks to me, when I saw you didn't understand that basic truth, I had to add 'for me'.

I thought that was understood, we read Scripture as God speaking to us directly. But, I see, even that basic truth is missing here. And that lead to you calling me weak in faith. You start out wrong, you end up wrong.

Do you consider it possible for smokers or drinkers to be Christian brethren? Or are they not “honoring the Holy Spirit?”

I'm accountable for myself. Gal 6:4,5 "But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another, for we are each responsible for our own conduct".

[metmom]

Both Noah and Lot were Judged to be righteous in the eyes of God, in the middle of unrighteous people. How were they righteous? By their righteous deeds in the middle of unrighteous behaviour. This whole chapter shows the condemnation of those who commit unrighteous deeds. Thank you for pointing this out to me once again.

And Lot's righteous deeds were?