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Vatican official: "The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear."
SummorumPontificum.net ^
| 6/11/10
| Brian Kopp
Posted on 06/11/2010 10:15:46 AM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM
By Brian Kopp
In the May 2010 issue of
Inside The Vatican magazine, in an article entitled "The Return of the Latin Mass," Dr. Robert Moynihan discusses the first "old Latin Mass" celebrated at the Basilica of the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in 40 years. The Traditional Latin Mass commemorating the fifth anniversary of Pope Benedict XVI's installation was held on April 24, 2010, and the Basilica, the largest Catholic church in America, was filled to standing room only, with nearly 4000 in attendance.
His article is well worth reading.
It appears that the future of the normative liturgy of Roman Catholicism is still in doubt, with an ongoing debate over which liturgy will emerge on the horizon, a hybrid liturgy between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo liturgy or a resurgence of the Traditional Latin Mass which will replace the Novus Ordo over the next several generations.
Here are a few excerpts worth considering.
A Passing Phase?
It is right that the controversy over the celebrant, Cardinal Castrillion-Hoyos vs. Bishop Slattery, did not "upstage" what was happening at this Mass.
For, in addition to the sacred mystery of the Mass itself (which was the most important thing of all, of course), something else of considerable importance was occurring on April 24 in Washington - of importance for the future of the Church, and so also of importance for the future of the West.
That "something" is this: the interest in this Mass - which was televised nationwide by EWTN - reveals that, in the West, in the United States, and precisely in Washington, DC, the capital of the US, despite a generation or more of "post-Christian" cultural pressure, there remains a desire, a hunger, to be connected with the Christian past, and to hand on to posterity what was handed down over the centuries, often in the face of much suffering.
In short, the celebration of this Mass, after 40 years and in the midst of an admittedly profound crisis in the Church, suggests that American Catholics, like their counterparts in Europe and around the world, may yet turn to the riches and treasures of their tradition to find a way forward.
And this will not be pure archaism.
It will not reflect a flight from present reality.
Nor will it be a rejection tout court of everything that came with the Second Vatican Council.
Rather, it will be an attempt to pick up the threads of our past and see if they may still be woven into the fabric of our present, in order to create the tapestry of our future.
It is our future that it looks toward - not just our past.
Having just been in Rome, having been present at the papal liturgies during Holy Week, having talked recently with a number of Vatican officials about liturgical matters and about the Second Vatican Council and its legacy, for me this liturgy reflected what Pope Benedict XVI is trying ceaselessly to teach: that the Catholic tradition has not been lost, that it remains to be discovered and lived.
How this will all work out, or course, is yet to be seen.
At least one Vatican official I talked to recently told me he believes the future of the Church's liturgical life will be a type of fusion between the old Mass and the new Mass of Paul VI.
This is the view of many.
But at least one Vatican official I talked to, also in the past month, told me he believes the future is solely and exclusively in a return to the old rite.
"The old rite is our past, and it will be our future, " he told me. "The new Mass is a passing phase. In 50 years, that will be entirely clear." (emphasis added.)
Dr. Moynihan concludes the article with an astute observation regarding Summorum Pontificum and the Orthodox:
And so the liturgy is of central importance to Benedict, and to the Vatican, today.
Benedict and his inner circle see the liturgy as critical to the future of Roman Catholicism. But not only to Roman Catholicism. There is another reason for Benedict's focus on the liturgy.
The Orthodox Connection
It is well known that the Orthodox, in a profound way, share Benedict's conviction that the liturgy is fundamental for faith, and so also for the practice of the faith.
For example, Eastern Orthodoxy's Patriarch Bartholomew I of Constantinople quoted the phrase "lex orandi, lex credendi" in Latin on the occasion of the visit of Pope Benedict XVI to Istanbul in 2006, drawing from the phrase the lesson that, "in liturgy we are reminded of the need to reach unity in faith as well as in prayer."
I believe that Pope Benedict's approval, a few months after that November 2006 visit, on July 7, 2007, of wider use of the old Latin Mass in the Latin rite, was intended to help prepare the reunion of the two great divided branches of Christianity, Catholicism and Orthodoxy.
The path to this reunion must pass, in some essential way, through the liturgy.
Through a shared liturgy. The liturgies of the two Churches must express the same faith if the Churches are ever to be once again in unity - something Christ willed for his disciples in his prayer on the final night with them before his crucifixion.
Inside the Vatican magazine is an excellent publication, by the way. Please
consider subscribing.
For more on Summorum Pontificum and the Orthodox, see this previous post:
TOPICS: Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Religion & Culture; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; mass
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
It’s hard to preach about morality when the congreation doesn’t understand the language that the mass is given in.
I’m glad to see that the CC is shaking off some of the old liberalizations of the past 50ish years, although going back to a Latin mass is not the place I would have started.
4
posted on
06/11/2010 10:38:34 AM PDT
by
Dayman
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
“Transitional stage” would have been a better translation. And I think that is what it will be. Frankly, I think we will probably end up with a vernacular version of the Old Rite, minus a few accretions that had crept in over the years.
Of course, we could have done that in the 1960s, prior to the Novus Ordo, at which time I was attending beautiful masses in NYC celebrated with an English translation of the the Tridentine Rite. This was permitted, mostly in university and other parishes, and was not the norm...but it easily could have been, if all Vatican II wanted to do was to encourage liturgical development and not destroy it and attempt to replace organic development with a manufactured, protestantized substitute.
But Vatican II was taken over by people with other objectives. I do think the Novus Ordo will go away; BXVI tried to let the Tridentine Latin Mass come back, but he was blocked by the aging VII bishops, who also made the people hysterical with their biased ravings. I think there may at some point be a simple translation of the old rite (good translations of which already exist and were in use in the 1950s and 1960s) and this may be what takes root, although perhaps not under this pope.
5
posted on
06/11/2010 10:44:32 AM PDT
by
livius
To: Dayman
Its hard to preach about morality when the congreation doesnt understand the language that the mass is given in. The homily is in the vernacular. The readings are usually read in the vernacular as part of the homily.
The rest of the Mass is in a missal anyone can buy for $100 or so, Latin in the left column and English in the right. 60% of it (or thereabouts) is the same from week-to-week; once you know it, you know it.
So what's the problem?
6
posted on
06/11/2010 10:59:21 AM PDT
by
Campion
To: Campion
My issue with the CC is they don’t teach morality or right/wrong as religion is supposed to. They have gone too PC and wishy-washy.
7
posted on
06/11/2010 11:09:06 AM PDT
by
Dayman
To: Campion
“The rest of the Mass is in a missal anyone can buy for $100 or so, Latin in the left column and English in the right.”
I might add that a very good “Beginner Latin” missal booklet, that is popular at my diocese, is available for $6.50 shipped. Even my nine year old can follow it.
http://www.ecclesiadei.org/Booklet%20Missals.htm
8
posted on
06/11/2010 11:14:24 AM PDT
by
steve86
(Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
To: Dayman; Salvation
My issue with the CC is they dont teach morality or right/wrong as religion is supposed to. Man, you don't know my priest or Salvation's!!! (you might be right about a few modernistic priests, but they'd never be found at a Latin Mass or a reverent vernacular Mass like Salvation's).
9
posted on
06/11/2010 11:17:22 AM PDT
by
steve86
(Acerbic by nature, not nurture)
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
I don't see how there can be unity in shared liturgy without the East giving up it's 3rd and 4th century divine service or the Catholics using theirs. The 6th century Traditional Latin Mass is not even close to the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the older and longer version of St. Basil.
When the EP mentioned "lex ordandi, lex credendi," which is a Latin phrase routinely used in Eastern Orthodoxy, he was simply saying that the manner of worship is the expression of what is believed. He wasn't calling for a common liturgy.
Whether the NO Mass is a passing phase is an interesting speculation. I personally think it will depend on the next pope. The Catholic Church seems to take on a whole new outlook on things and priorities with each new pope. From an Orthodox point of view, there is something seriously wrong with that.
10
posted on
06/11/2010 11:23:15 AM PDT
by
kosta50
(The world is the way it is even if YOU don't understand it)
To: Dayman
![](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/chode6/chode2.gif)
the Missile has Latin on the left and English on the right...
11
posted on
06/11/2010 11:39:27 AM PDT
by
Chode
(American Hedonist *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
To: Campion
The homily is in the vernacular. The readings are usually read in the vernacular as part of the homily. The rest of the Mass is in a missal anyone can buy for $100 or so, Latin in the left column and English in the right. 60% of it (or thereabouts) is the same from week-to-week; once you know it, you know it.$100 is high. We bought paperback Stedman Sunday missals for our congregation at $6 each NEW. All the Traditional Mass every day of the week missals are like 40-$50 today.
The Novus Ordo missalettres change every month, would cost more in a short time than the traditoinal missals which last forever. I still use a 1945 Lassance missal.
12
posted on
06/11/2010 1:08:27 PM PDT
by
Leoni
To: Dayman
My issue with the CC is they dont teach morality or right/wrong as religion is supposed to. I suggest you buy a copy of the catechism, available at any bookstore, and get back to us when you've read it through.
13
posted on
06/11/2010 1:20:56 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: Leoni
$100 is high.This is mine. Okay, so it's only $60.
14
posted on
06/11/2010 1:23:20 PM PDT
by
Campion
To: Campion
I married a catholic and have gone to mass every Sunday since then in 4 states. Not once have the congreation of any of the churches been told a single moral absolute during my attendence.
Does your catholic church teach homosexuality is a sin, theft, adultry, abortion, unmarried cohabitation, etc.? When was the last time they were mentioned from the pulpit at your church? When I go they pick a verse and give a nice talk about what it means while avoiding moral absolutes. Or, the priest will relay a story about how God is all around us, God loves us, etc.
I suggest you start holding the CC to a higher standard and stop making excuses for their mealy mouthed attempt to avoid offending anyone in attendence.
15
posted on
06/11/2010 3:26:52 PM PDT
by
Dayman
To: Dayman
Morality is preached at my parish, but then, I go to Latin Mass. The younger priests are pretty gutsy in their preaching I have noticed.
You need to go to a better parish with other like-minded Catholics, let the PC people do what they do. Get thee to a conservative parish!
16
posted on
06/11/2010 3:59:10 PM PDT
by
pbear8
(the Lord is my light and my salvation)
To: Dayman
....your original comment was that it was tough for people tounderstand morality when it’s in a different language...for your information, the teaching elements of the Mass (readings, sermon, etc.) are done in the vernacular in the EF; also, it was mentioned that the translations of the Mass are available in missals (which are provided for free at the EF I attend...
You originally mentioned nothing about the lack of grit in the Catholic liturgical message...you developed that meme after your original point was decimated...
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
Interesting title. I’ll be back to read it.
18
posted on
06/11/2010 7:36:10 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Dr. Brian Kopp
This is going to be fun to watch. Shall I get the popcorn?
19
posted on
06/11/2010 9:40:57 PM PDT
by
Salvation
("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
To: Dayman
I suggest you start holding the CC to a higher standard and stop making excuses for their mealy mouthed attempt to avoid offending anyone in attendence. I suggest you stop accusing me of "making excuses", and go out and read the freeping manual [catechism]. It's crystal clear if you bother to read the book.
I honestly don't have a lot of patience with (educated, adult) Catholics who expect to sit on their hind ends for an hour every Sunday and have the faith spoon-fed to them like they were babies. If you can read a book to understand how to do your job, you can read a book to understand what your religion teaches, and why. Which is more important, after all -- heaven, or your pay check?
Does your catholic church teach homosexuality is a sin, theft, adultry, abortion, unmarried cohabitation, etc.?
It's in the book.
When was the last time they were mentioned from the pulpit at your church?
Actually, I heard a fine sermon on exactly those topics about a month ago at a church I normally don't attend because it's too liberal!!! (It was during the Nashville flood; I couldn't get to my regular parish.)
And because many of his parishioners couldn't make it to Mass that weekend because of the flood, the pastor printed his sermon up and mailed it to each of them.
20
posted on
06/12/2010 7:57:09 AM PDT
by
Campion
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