Posted on 04/15/2010 8:23:04 AM PDT by WhatsItAllAbout
"The Parable of the Pebble and the Pond" God's gift to us.
"The Parable of the Pebble and the Pond" Answers the question when the Pebble parts the Pond what makes the waves, the Pebble or the Pond, and what does it mean to me?
In today's World "The Parable of the Pebble and the Pond" takes on an even deeper meaning.
God sees "The Parable of the Pebble and the Pond" written on every soul, so what have you wrtten?
You are talking about a parable. I would like to read this parable.
I still have no idea what the subject is about. You gave a title, but no substance. Please elaborate.
When I write a story, I have a beginning, a middle and an end, with a moral or point to close it up. All I see on your post is a title, and no story behind it. The title says “The Parable of the Pebble and the Pond” but nowhere do I see a story. That is my point. I have no idea what the STORY is. Suppose I wrote a story and I call it”... And They Lived Happily Ever After.” and didn’t post anything else. You would have no idea what I was talking about.
Give me some substance, so I can either agree or disagree with your point. Or offer an alternative.
Your story (such as it is) gives no clue as to what the pebble is, or the pond, or anything else.
And YES, I can disagree, if there is reason to, or I can offer an agreement to what is said... much like saying Amen after a good point in a sermon.
As to my alternative to the statement:”You have no control over the things that are done to you, but only the things you do about it.”????
You cetainly have control over where you put your time. If you hate barfights, stay out of bars.
"In my experience God's Grace is available to ALL, Salvation is Universally available to All through Christ's death on the Cross and death's defeat in his Resurrection."
Nonsense.
The grace of Jesus Christ is not universal nor universally available. Read the letter to the Romans all the way through, learn some hermeneutics.
"So then it does not depend upon the man who wills (chooses) or the man who runs (acts), but upon God who has mercy...So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. YOU WILL SAY TO ME THEN, 'WHY DOES HE STILL FIND FAULT? FOR WHO CAN RESIST HIS WILL?" Rom. 9:16 - 19ff. Read the rest for Paul's answer.
God is rescuing whom He will, for no identifiable reason to the recipients or those left to die in their sins. The annotations of the NIV mean no more to believers than the pontifications of the RC church. Let go of the dreamy tripe and speak the truth plainly...if you can.
The Scriptures indicate that there are several important doctrines in play simultaneously. That this is so should not surprise us...we are dealing with a God whose mind is beyond infinite. It is transcendent. We are trying to keep up from language given to us describing how a transcendent and sovereign God thinks and acts.
To discuss God's extension of mercy upon the world, we will need to deal with foreknowledge and predestination at the same time. So, if you are defining "mercy" as God extending the ability for a man to make a completely self-determined decision to trust God, or reject Him (again, completely unaffected by God's control over that decision), then God has to have no idea who will be saved and who will perish. If He knew, then the decision would not be taking place at the moment of "decision", but sometime prior.
If a man is really "free", then God really does not know what he will choose rendering God's foreknowledge deficient. I think we all agree that foreknowledge implies knowing beforehand (in time/space history) the outcome of a particular event. But, for "freedom" to exist, God cannot have prior knowledge of the outcome. This is what gave rise to the "Open Theology" movement, a cult of monumental proportions.
We, OTOH, maintain that the Scripture makes it abundantly clear that God knows every detail that will happen in the future. This is one more reason He can provide prophetic statements about future events with certainty. His foreknowledge is actually the understanding He possesses of the decisions He has already made and is executing after the counsel of His will.
Therefore, taken together, Rom. 11:25ff is simply saying that the day is coming when, irrespective of Israel's stubborn heart, incalcitrant behavior, firm resistance to Yahweh, He will break their hearts, change their status from "enemies" to elect and rescue perhaps an entire generation. God knows the time when the "fulness of the Gentiles" will be complete and at that moment will switch over His outpouring of "mercy" and turn to the Jews, again. He is powerful to manipulate their will, exactly as He has done to the Gentiles. cf to Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed." Notice, not, "as many as believed were appointed to eternal life." but, "as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
Taken out of context of Paul's argument, it is tempting to make the "all" of Rom. 11:32 imply "every human being". But, in context he is saying, the way God metes out mercy applies to every "nationality", both Jews and Gentiles (that is the local argument). When He wishes to soften the hearts of one group, he softens them. When He wishes to harden, He hardens and all peoples are subject to His way.
Were this not the case, Pharaoh would have been dealt a singularly raw deal being the only human that reached a point to be "hardened". This would be contrary to Rom 11:32. But, the text of Rom. 9 clearly claims Pharaoh is a picture, a type, of God making the clay pots he has set aside for destruction become unable to see Him, turn to Him, repent to Him. And the rebuttal question of, "How can He still find fault, for who resists His will?" is anticipated by Paul. Go read his answer. Tough luck, people. We have no business saying God cannot run His universe.
Rom. 11 is the same argument on Israel. They have been temporarily hardened and considered "enemies" for the sake of opening the way for the Gentiles to receive the mercy. And, incidentally, since there is really no such word as "Gentiles", it is simply "all other nations", this means that the people outside of Israel are currently getting the great dose of mercy now. But, that window will close someday and God will turn back to Israel to work on them.
Not certain if you are not reading my answer, or you did not catch the concepts, but your response does not address what I wrote.
To wit...I wrote that God's foreknowledge is not the constraining factor, but rather the constraining factor is His predestining all individuals. I simply stated that the REASON that His foreknowledge is absolute, perfect, without error, and true is that it is a reflection of His aboslute, perfect, and error free control of all matters occurring, including where individuals end up. There is not a maverick molecule in existence.
And I noted, if His foreknowledge is absolutely perfect, then that means what He foreknows is absolutely going to occur and if it is absolutely going to occur, then no other outcome could occur in its place. I did not, and never would, say that this absolute control is detectable by man. You and I cannot feel the genius of this "management", nor can any other existent being. Satan cannot "feel" the limits, direction, and control that the God of ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH is exerting upon him...but it is happening to Satan's peril.
Now, this "feeling" that you can go left or right without any perception of control does not mean that the "feeling" is correct. On the contrary, the Scriptures inform us the opposite is happening, Prov. 16:9, "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps." You may think you picked the red sox over the green sox, but your plans were being managed by God. This goes for the apparent random events of the universe. Prov. 16:33, "The die is rolled into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord." There is no such thing as real chance, real randomness, real anything that this not being ultimately done by God. Again, I am NOT SAYING you can feel it. If you wish, I can provide some 30 passages that state this unequivocally.
Now, if that fact is acceptable, I can from that understand how it is that God is really fashioning all of the decisions of a man's heart and their ultimate destinations. If you trust Christ, if you turn to Him, aware of your desparate sin, then that understanding is not ultimately originating from you. It is because in eons past, your Heavenly Father set His heart upon you to draw you to Himself. The credit is His.
Imagine, not only is the Rescue itself accomplished by Christ (the vicarious atoning death of Jesus instead of you), but the very fact of your heart being broken to come and partake of Him, is due to Him. This position of utter dependency is what the Gospel is really all about. There is no part of this that we can trace to us. This Monergistic work (singularly and only God at work in you) is what removes the opportunity to boast. You cannot say, "Well, at least I decided to follow Jesus and those evil men did not." Such is a form of adoration of my own works.
But, notice, if He decreed you to be adopted in ages past (in Ephesians Paul says it was before the foundation of the world 1:4), then He set in motion all that must have transpired to get you to turn to Him, this is such utter and unbounded love that He expressed toward you that you ought to have one and only one person to thank...God.
So, "mercy" is defined not as giving anyone and everyone who wants it salvation. Rather, "mercy" is God deciding to set some free from the punishment that the rest will not escape. And Paul knows when the Romans understand what he is arguing will say, "Then how can He still find fault, for who escapes His will?" But, the answer is...that is just the way it is.
And, yes, of course we are all offenders. But, your conclusion this should imply, "...salvation be available to all who have freewill to accept it or reject it?" contains those two errors. It assumes the Scripture teaches "freewill" and it assumes the Scripture teaches anyone should be able to choose salvation. Unfortunately, neither of these comport with the text.
I will add as a postscript that you might argue one could find all kinds of places where Scripture calls you to "decide". Such demands do not address whether such a decision is entirely yours to make. It simply states, "Decide". You are reading into it that the decision is to be unaffected, unmanaged, uncontrolled by God. This is often the claim regarding John 3:16. But read the verse closely, John simply states a fact. He does not make an open offer. John 6:44 makes it crystal clear that "No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him."
.I wrote that God's foreknowledge is not the constraining factor, but rather the constraining factor is His predestining all individuals. I simply stated that the REASON that His foreknowledge is absolute, perfect, without error, and true is that it is a reflection of His aboslute, perfect, and error free control of all matters occurring, including where individuals end up. There is not a maverick molecule in existence.
And I noted, if His foreknowledge is absolutely perfect, then that means what He foreknows is absolutely going to occur and if it is absolutely going to occur, then no other outcome could occur in its place. I did not, and never would, say that this absolute control is detectable by man. You and I cannot feel the genius of this "management", nor can any other existent being. Satan cannot "feel" the limits, direction, and control that the God of ALL HEAVEN AND EARTH is exerting upon him...but it is happening to Satan's peril.
Now, this "feeling" that you can go left or right without any perception of control does not mean that the "feeling" is correct. On the contrary, the Scriptures inform us the opposite is happening, Prov. 16:9, "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps." You may think you picked the red sox over the green sox, but your plans were being managed by God. This goes for the apparent random events of the universe. Prov. 16:33, "The die is rolled into the lap, But its every decision is from the Lord." There is no such thing as real chance, real randomness, real anything that this not being ultimately done by God. Again, I am NOT SAYING you can feel it. If you wish, I can provide some 30 passages that state this unequivocally.
Now, if that fact is acceptable, I can from that understand how it is that God is really fashioning all of the decisions of a man's heart and their ultimate destinations. If you trust Christ, if you turn to Him, aware of your desparate sin, then that understanding is not ultimately originating from you. It is because in eons past, your Heavenly Father set His heart upon you to draw you to Himself. The credit is His.
Imagine, not only is the Rescue itself accomplished by Christ (the vicarious atoning death of Jesus instead of you), but the very fact of your heart being broken to come and partake of Him, is due to Him. This position of utter dependency is what the Gospel is really all about. There is no part of this that we can trace to us. This Monergistic work (singularly and only God at work in you) is what removes the opportunity to boast. You cannot say, "Well, at least I decided to follow Jesus and those evil men did not." Such is a form of adoration of my own works.
But, notice, if He decreed you to be adopted in ages past (in Ephesians Paul says it was before the foundation of the world 1:4), then He set in motion all that must have transpired to get you to turn to Him, this is such utter and unbounded love that He expressed toward you that you ought to have one and only one person to thank...God.
So, "mercy" is defined not as giving anyone and everyone who wants it salvation. Rather, "mercy" is God deciding to set some free from the punishment that the rest will not escape. And Paul knows when the Romans understand what he is arguing will say, "Then how can He still find fault, for who escapes His will?" But, the answer is...that is just the way it is.
And, yes, of course we are all offenders. But, your conclusion this should imply, "...salvation be available to all who have freewill to accept it or reject it?" contains those two errors. It assumes the Scripture teaches "freewill" and it assumes the Scripture teaches anyone should be able to choose salvation. Unfortunately, neither of these comport with the text.
I will add as a postscript that you might argue one could find all kinds of places where Scripture calls you to "decide". Such demands do not address whether such a decision is entirely yours to make. It simply states, "Decide". You are reading into it that the decision is to be unaffected, unmanaged, uncontrolled by God. This is often the claim regarding John 3:16. But read the verse closely, John simply states a fact. He does not make an open offer. John 6:44 makes it crystal clear that "No one comes to Me unless the Father draws him."
Every word gets an AMEN! The Christian distinctive is real and God-ordained. The temporal world seeks to tell us it's all up to men, but the truth is that now and always it is up to God. His call. Thank God.
Such kind words. Thank you.
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