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ATONEMENT OF JESUS CHRIST - Mormon- (OPEN)
lightplanet.com ^ | Jeffrey R. Holland

Posted on 03/01/2010 5:56:02 PM PST by greyfoxx39

 

Atonement of Jesus Christ

by Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland

The Atonement of Jesus Christ is the foreordained but voluntary act of the Only Begotten Son of God. He offered his life, including his innocent body, blood, and spiritual anguish as a redeeming ransom (1) for the effect of the Fall of Adam upon all mankind and (2) for the personal sins of all who repent, from Adam to the end of the world. Latter-day Saints believe this is the central fact, the crucial foundation, the chief doctrine, and the greatest expression of divine love in the Plan of Salvation. The Prophet Joseph Smith declared that all "things which pertain to our religion are only appendages" to the Atonement of Christ (TPJS, p. 121).

The literal meaning of the word "Atonement" is self-evident: at-one-ment, the act of unifying or bringing together what has been separated and estranged. The Atonement of Jesus Christ was indispensable because of the separating transgression, or fall, of Adam, which brought death into the world when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 2:9; 3:1-24). Latter-day Saints readily acknowledge both the physical and the spiritual death that Adam and Eve brought upon themselves and all of their posterity, physical death bringing the temporary separation of the spirit from the body, and spiritual death bringing the estrangement of both the spirit and the body from God. But they also believe that the Fall was part of a divine, foreordained plan without which mortal children would not have been born to Adam and Eve. Had not these first parents freely chosen to leave the Garden of Eden via their transgression, there would have been on this earth no human family to experience opposition and growth, moral agency and choice, and the joy of resurrection, redemption, and eternal life (2 Ne. 2:23; Moses 5:11).

The need for a future Atonement was explained in a premortal Council in Heaven at which the spirits of the entire human family were in attendance and over which God the Father presided. The two principal associates of God in that council were the premortal Jesus (also known as Jehovah; see Jesus Christ, Jehovah) and the premortal Adam (also known as Michael). It was in this premortal setting that Christ voluntarily entered into a covenant with the Father, agreeing to enhance the moral agency of humankind even as he atoned for their sins, and he returned to the Father all honor and glory for such selflessness. This preordained role of Christ as mediator explains why the book of Revelation describes Christ as "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) and why Old Testament prophets, priests, and kings, including Moses (Deut. 18:15, 17-19), Job (19:25-27), the Psalmist (Ps. 2, 22), Zechariah (9:9; 12:10; 13:6), Isaiah (7:14; 9:6-7; 53), and Micah (5:2), could speak of the Messiah and his divine role many centuries before his physical birth. A Book of Mormon prophet wrote, "I say unto you that none of the prophets have written, nor prophesied, save they have spoken concerning this Christ" (Jacob 4:4; 7:11). To the brother of Jared who lived some two thousand years before the Redeemer's birth, the premortal Christ declared, "Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people" (Ether 3:14). Such scriptural foreshadowings are reflected in the conversation Christ had with two of his disciples on the road to Emmaus: "Beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself" (Luke 24:27; cf. also 24:44).

For Latter-day Saints, it is crucially important to see the agreed-upon and understood fall of man only in the context of the equally agreed-upon and understood redemption of man—redemption provided through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Thus, one of the most important and oft-quoted lines of Latter-day Saint scripture says, "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy. And the Messiah cometh in the fulness of time, that he may redeem the children of men from the fall" (2 Ne. 2:25-26).

LDS scripture teaches that the mission of Christ as Redeemer and the commandment to offer animal sacrifice as an anticipatory reminder and symbol of that divine Atonement to come were first taught to Adam and Eve soon after they had been expelled from the Garden of Eden (Moses 5:4-8). The Atonement of Christ was taught to the parents of the family of man with the intent that they and their posterity would observe the sacrificial ordinances down through their generations, remembering as they did so the mission and mercy of Christ who was to come. Latter-day Saints emphatically teach that the extent of this Atonement is universal, opening the way for the redemption of all mankind—non-Christians as well as Christians, the godless as well as the god-fearing, the untaught infant as well as the fully converted and knowledgeable adult. "It is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice," said Amulek in the Book of Mormon, "an infinite and eternal sacrifice…. There can be nothing which is short of an infinite Atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world" (Alma 34:10, 12).

This infinite Atonement of Christ—and of Christ only—was possible because (1) he was the only sinless man ever to live on this earth and therefore was not subject to the spiritual death that comes as a result of sin; (2) he was the Only Begotten of the Father and therefore possessed the attributes of Godhood, which gave him power over physical death (see 2 Ne. 9:5-9; Alma 34:9-12); and (3) he was the only one sufficiently humble and willing in the premortal council to be foreordained there to that service (JC, pp. 21-62).

The universal, infinite, and unconditional aspects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ are several. They include his ransom for Adam's original transgression so that no member of the human family is held responsible for that sin (A of F 2; see Original Sin). Another universal gift is the resurrection from the dead of every man, woman, and child who lives, has ever lived, or ever will live, on the earth. Thus, the Atonement is not only universal in the sense that it saves the entire human family from physical death, but it is also infinite in the sense that its impact and efficacy in making redemption possible for all reach back in one direction to the beginning of time and forward in the other direction throughout all eternity. In short, the Atonement has universal, infinite, and unconditional consequences for all mankind throughout the duration of all eternity.

Emphasizing these unconditional gifts arising out of Christ's atoning sacrifice, Latter-day Saints believe that other aspects of Christ's gift are conditional upon obedience and diligence in keeping God's commandments. For example, while members of the human family are freely and universally given a reprieve from Adam's sin through no effort or action of their own, they are not freely and universally given a reprieve of their own sins unless they pledge faith in Christ, repent of those sins, are baptized in his name, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost and confirmation into Christ's church, and press forward with a brightness of hope and faithful endurance for the remainder of life's journey. Of this personal challenge, Christ said, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink" (D&C 19:16-18).

Furthermore, although the breaking of the bonds of mortal death by the resurrection of the body is a free and universal gift from Christ, a product of his victory over death and the grave, the kind or nature of the body (or "degree of glory" of the body), as well as the time of one's resurrection, is affected very directly by the extent of one's faithfulness in this life (see Degrees of Glory). The apostle Paul made clear, for example, that those most fully committed to Christ will "rise first" in the resurrection (1 Thes. 4:16). Paul also speaks of different orders of resurrected bodies (1 Cor. 15:40). The bodies of the highest orders or degrees of glory in the resurrection are promised to those who faithfully adhere to the principles and ordinances of the gospel of Jesus Christ; they will not only enjoy immortality (a universal gift to everyone) but also eternal lives in the Celestial Kingdom of glory (D&C 88:4; 132:24; see also Resurrection).

Latter-day Saints stress that neither the unconditional nor the conditional blessings of the Atonement would be available to mankind except through the grace and goodness of Christ. Obviously the unconditional blessings of the Atonement are unearned, but the conditional ones are also not fully merited. By living faithfully and keeping the commandments of God, one can receive additional privileges; but they are still given freely, not fully earned. They are always and ever a product of God's grace. Latter-day Saint scripture is emphatic in its declaration that "there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah" (2 Ne. 2:8).

The Church is also emphatic about the salvation of little children, the mentally impaired, those who lived without ever hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, and so forth: these are redeemed by the universal power of the Atonement of Christ and will have the opportunity to receive the fulness of the gospel in the spirit world (see Salvation for the Dead).

To meet the demands of the Atonement, the sinless Christ went first into the Garden of Gethsemane, there to bear the spiritual agony of soul only he could bear. He "began to be sorrowful and very heavy," saying to his three chief disciples, "My soul is exceeding sorrowful, unto death" (Mark 14:34). Leaving them to keep watch, he went further into the garden, where he would suffer "the pains of all men, yea, the pains of every living creature, both men, women, and children, who belong to the family of Adam" (2 Ne. 9:21). There he "struggled and groaned under a burden such as no other being who has lived on earth might even conceive as possible" (JC, p. 613).

Christ's Atonement satisfied the demands of justice and thereby ransomed and redeemed the souls of all men, women, and children "that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities" (Alma 7:12). Thus, Latter-day Saints teach that Christ "descended below all things"—including every kind of sickness, infirmity, and dark despair experienced by every mortal being—in order that he might "comprehend all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth" (D&C 88:6). This spiritual anguish of plumbing the depths of human suffering and sorrow was experienced primarily in the Garden of Gethsemane. It was there that he was "in an agony" and "prayed more earnestly." It was there that his sweat was "as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground" (Luke 22:44) for he bled "at every pore" (D&C 19:18). It was there that he began the final March to Calvary.

The majesty and triumph of the Atonement reached its zenith when, after unspeakable abuse at the hands of the Roman soldiers and others, Christ appealed from the cross, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34). Forgiveness was the key to the meaning of all the suffering he had come to endure.

Such an utterly lonely and excruciating mission is piercingly expressed in that near-final and most agonizing cry of all, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). In the depths of that anguish, even nature itself convulsed, "and there was a darkness over all the earth…. The sun was darkened…. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent" (Luke 23:43-45; Matt. 27:51-52). Finally, even the seemingly unbearable had been borne and Jesus said, "It is finished" (John 19:30), and then, saying "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit," he "gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46). Latter-day Saints believe that every tongue will someday, somewhere confess as did a Roman centurion at the crucifixion, "Truly this was the Son of God" (Matt. 27:54).

"The Savior thus becomes master of the situation—the debt is paid, the redemption made, the covenant fulfilled, justice satisfied, the will of God done, and all power is now given into the hands of the Son of God—the power of the resurrection, the power of the redemption, the power of salvation…. He becomes the author of eternal life and exaltation. He is the Redeemer, the Resurrector, the Savior of man and the world" (Taylor, p. 171). Furthermore, his Atonement extends to all life—beasts, fish, fowl, and the earth itself.

To the thoughtful woman and man, it is "a matter of surpassing wonder" (AF, p. 77) that the voluntary and merciful sacrifice of a single being could satisfy the infinite and eternal demands of justice, atone for every human transgression and misdeed, and thereby sweep all mankind into the encompassing arms of his merciful embrace. A President and prophet of the LDS Church writing on this subject said:

In some mysterious, incomprehensible way, Jesus assumed the responsibility which naturally would have devolved upon Adam; but which could only be accomplished through the mediation of Himself, and by taking upon Himself their sorrows, assuming their responsibilities, and bearing their transgressions or sins. In a manner to us incomprehensible and inexplicable, He bore the weight of the sins of the whole world, not only of Adam, but of his posterity; and in doing that opened the kingdom of heaven, not only to all believers and all who obeyed the law of God, but to more than one-half of the human family who die before they come to years of maturity as well as to the heathen, who having died without law, will, through His mediation, be resurrected without law, and be judged without law, and thus participate…in the blessings of His Atonement [Taylor, pp. 148-49].

Latter-day Saints sing a favorite hymn, written by Charles H. Gabriel, that expresses their deepest feelings regarding this greatest of all gifts:

I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,

Confused at the grace that so fully he proffers me.

I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,

That for me, a sinner, he suffered, He bled and died.

Oh, it is wonderful that he should care for me

Enough to die for me!

Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me! [Hymns, p. 193].

Bibliography

McConkie, Bruce R. The Promised Messiah. Salt Lake City, 1978.

Nibley, Hugh W. "The Atonement of Jesus Christ," Ensign 20 (July 1990):18-23; (Aug. 1990):30-34; (Sept. 1990):22-26; (Oct. 1990):26-31.

Taylor, John. The Mediation and Atonement. Salt Lake City, 1882.

 



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; beck; christian; glennbeck; lds; mormon; mormon1
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To: Colofornian

As I understand it, most protestants believe the gift you speak of is conditional upon a person’s belief in Jesus Christ. Some will even say there must be some sort of profession(act).


41 posted on 03/01/2010 11:23:47 PM PST by acipher
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Bump


42 posted on 03/02/2010 4:47:33 AM PST by RnMomof7
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To: acipher
As I understand it, most protestants believe the gift you speak of is conditional upon a person’s belief in Jesus Christ.

The historic Christian Church has largely agreed on what happens in the process of belief; the verbiage hasn't always been as clear as day from one denomination to another. But the "condition" of which you speak is not even anything any of us can take credit for...it's truly our Tri-Unity God in action in us.

What do I mean? Look @ the role of the Holy Spirit: "...no one can say that 'Jesus is Lord,' except by the Holy Spirit." (1 Corinthians 12:3)

Now, of course, the era when the apostle Paul uttered this, the context was clear: ...everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted... (2 Tim. 3:12) IOW, there was no "get-ahead socially confessions of Jesus Christ" -- it cost something in that time & place.

But the Holy Spirit receives 100% credit for our belief in Jesus Christ. So while people can "technically" call that a "condition," is it any "condition" that can be accredited to our spiritual account? (NO!!!!)

Perhaps next you or some other poster might say, "Well, what about repentance? Isn't that a 'condition' of receiving the gift of salvation?"

And I'd answer, "Again, that could technically be called a 'condition' but who is the 'Real Actor' behind the scenes in bringing about repentance?" Our Tri-Une God again!

Jesus Christ: God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. (Acts 5:31)

So, unlike the other 5:31 -- D&C 5:31 -- where "forgiveness of sins" is predicated upon whole-souled work ("thrust in your sickle"), the Bible sees repentance & forgiveness of sins as a pure "gift" from Jesus Christ. He gives repentance. It's that simple.

Heavenly Father: When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)

Do you comprehend the upshot of this verse? If God doesn't "grant" repentance, people groups aren't going to repent.

So, Who gets credit for all of this? God the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3); God the Son (Acts 5:31); God the Father (Acts 11:18). I would hope none of us would ever fall to the temptation to steal even a drop of His glory. It's ALL God...those prompters to act...the energy to act...It's ALL Him!

Acipher, good Q.

43 posted on 03/02/2010 6:56:43 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Colofornian

So because the Holy Spirit gets credit for a person’s belief in Christ, saying salvation is conditional upon belief Christ is incorrect?

BUT it is a cold hard fact:
- Don’t believe in Christ equals no salvation
- Do Believe in Christ equals salvation
There is no way around the statement, salvation is conditional upon belief.

But, is it a person belief that saves them? NO, it is only through the atonement of Christ that we are saved. Can we take credit for our salvation? Never.

Does LDS culture and doctrine put emphasis on meeting the conditions for salvation? Very much so.


44 posted on 03/02/2010 7:31:02 AM PST by acipher
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To: greyfoxx39

bttt


45 posted on 03/02/2010 7:36:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: acipher
So because the Holy Spirit gets credit for a person’s belief in Christ, saying salvation is conditional upon belief Christ is incorrect?

No. I said it's technically correct.

In my previous qualification, you gotta understand that you've raised these Q in the context of what I said earlier, which focused on whether belief is a gift we receive vs. a work we do. (The Bible clearly outlines it's the former, resulting, however, in an increase in GOD working in us & through us).

So the key Q we're discussing is: Is belief a 'work' you do where YOU get the credit? And to this, you just said:

But, is it a person belief that saves them? NO, it is only through the atonement of Christ that we are saved. Can we take credit for our salvation? Never.

Well, you seem to agree with a more historic Christian perspective here...But you need to understand how "at-odds" your statement here sounds in contrast to the Lds third article of faith: 3.We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by...

By what? By Jesus dying for our behalf?...By the Father drawing us? (John 6:28-29, 44); By the Holy Ghost rebirthing us? (John 3)

No. None of these things are highlighted in the Third article of faith. Mormons indeed set up a "taking credit" system in saying: by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

This reduces the "gospel" to just another commandment to obey. The gospel isn't "thou shalt" muster anything from within; it's an announcement; it's good news...good tidings...you ARE forgiven...you ARE pardoned...BE reconciled...TRUST on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. What do WE do with NEWS? We receive. We respond with joy.

You mention "LDS culture and doctrine" -- well, Mormons like to quote Phil. 2:12: ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, -- all the while ignoring the next sentence in the next verse: 13for it is GOD WHO WORKS IN YOU TO WILL AND TO ACT according to his good purpose. Who gets the credit & the glory? God!!! HE works in us! He enables our will & actions to be in accordance with Him!

I'll further address your last comment, which encompasses the LDS 4th article of faith, in my next post.

46 posted on 03/02/2010 8:14:18 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: acipher; Saundra Duffy
Does LDS culture and doctrine put emphasis on meeting the conditions for salvation? Very much so.

Essentially, the author of this article in this thread weaves through what is said in the Lds 4th article of faith in his paragraph where he discusses "conditions."

Last September, Saundra Duffy cited the Lds 4th article of faith: We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Here's how I then responded to Saundra:

People first need to understand that Lds tend to see these things as a check-off list of things they need to do. It's a spiritual "to-do" checklist.

Let's break down those "four things" + a fifth they add -- endure to the end:
#1 Mormons already conclude the Holy Ghost is a gift.
#2 The Bible also says faith/eternal life is a gift (1 Cor. 12:3; John 6:28-29; Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:5, 8-9). So, no Boy Scout brownie points for either receiving faith or receiving the Holy Ghost.
#3 Even in the Biblical passages about baptism, the emphasis is on God mercy's (Titus 3:5) and Jesus dying & rising again (Rom. 6:1-4) -- not upon some ritualistic checklist "I did this" kind of thing. People are passive in the act of baptism -- it's something done upon them -- not a ritualistic "good work"...I mean, it's not like baptism is swimming to Catalina Island off of the CA coast!

So, so far, the Mormons are 0-for-3 in making any of these about "good works." That's leaves two more:

Repentance. Literal meaning: u-turn. Who does the u-turn? We do. The key question, though, is "Who gets the credit when we do a u-turn?" If you're driving down a road & a man in the orange vest stops your vehicle, warns you that the road ahead is washed out, and advises that you do a u-turn, are you going to take credit for your wisdom in turning around? Jesus said that when the Holy Ghost would come, "he will repove the world of sin" -- meaning He would convict the world of that sin. Some convicts get the message & "u-turn" away from the prison system; others return; others never leave.

On top of that it's a Christian's "born-again" "in the Spirit" experience that empowers him or her to not return to that life of bondage.

So, now we're down to 0-for-4 to Mormons trying to vie for religious glory. What's left? Endure to the end.

Three verses in the gospels mention Jesus linking being saved with enduring to the end (Mt. 10:22; 24:13; Mk 13:13). Is that something we do? (You bet!)

The Bible gives us Old Testament real-life parallels as to what such enduring meant:
We wander through a wilderness after our bondage experience like the Israelites of old. Those who endured reached the promised land; but even "good works" Moses didn't reach the promised land. Why? Because he wanted to do something his way & stuck the rock twice in the desert.

Ultimately, in the Christian life, it's the "longsuffering" of Jesus that "is salvation" (2 Peter 3:15) -- not the longsuffering of any Mormon.

47 posted on 03/02/2010 8:25:19 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Colofornian

Placemark


48 posted on 03/02/2010 8:38:03 AM PST by greyfoxx39 ("The Economy Is So Bad, Even 'Rosy Scenario' Lost Her Job"-Jim Geraghty)
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To: Colofornian

I disagree that I am at odds with the third article of faith.

It says salvation comes through the atonement of Christ.
What is the condition for the atonement to apply? Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Is salvation conditional upon obedience? Yes. Is it the obedience which saves us? NO. Can we take credit? NO.

I see very little difference from the following:

Is salvation conditional upon obedience(belief in Christ)? Yes. Is it the obedience(belief in Christ) which saves us? NO. Can we take credit? NO.


49 posted on 03/02/2010 8:41:04 AM PST by acipher
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To: Colofornian

Also, I find the long post of block quotes very tedious. From now on, I will not be reading any post that seems over 100 words.


50 posted on 03/02/2010 8:49:17 AM PST by acipher
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To: Colofornian

Would that be circular reasoning in a straight line ???


51 posted on 03/02/2010 8:53:50 AM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Logophile
Certainly something significant happened in the Garden. Luke tells us that Jesus was "in agony," and that "his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." (Luke 22:44). That sounds as if Jesus was laboring under an enormous load. That load, I believe, was the burden of the sins of mankind, which he bore until he died on the cross. If you believe otherwise, we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

Yes, something did happen in the garden and as you said the FULL burden of sin became real. But the garden was not the place of atonement.

Do a word search - every time atonement is mentioned in the OT, it has to do with the SACRIFICE. Now, did that sacrifice occur in the garden or on the cross? If such a location is important it should be mentioned a lot. The garden is not mentioned outside of the gospels. However, the cross is referenced countless of times. And when you find the only reference to atonment in the NT, it is right in the middle of Paul's discourse on the Sacrifice of Jesus and what his death did - not any agony in the garden.

52 posted on 03/02/2010 9:02:22 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: acipher
It says salvation comes through the atonement of Christ.

You get to be resurrected, but for the ultimate mormon salvation you are entirely required to rely upon you works.

Is salvation conditional upon obedience? Yes.

Eph 2:8 KJV - For by grace (God's loving-kindness) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

53 posted on 03/02/2010 9:07:40 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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To: acipher
It says salvation comes through the atonement of Christ. What is the condition for the atonement to apply? Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Acipher, would you look at what I wrote in post #31? I cited a part of this article which reads: ...and in doing that opened the kingdom of heaven, not only to all believers and all who obeyed the law of God, but to more than one-half of the human family who die before they come to years of maturity as well as to the heathen, who having died without law, will, through His mediation, be resurrected without law, and be judged without law, and thus participate…in the blessings of His Atonement [Taylor, pp. 148-49].

Don't you see how Mormons are speaking out of both sides of their mouths? On the one hand, this article's author is saying the atonement applies to even heathen who don't know Jesus, and thus accrue benefits of the atonement...(And if we want to extend that beyond the heathen, Lds say essentially everybody is saved anyway...no matter what their relationship is with Christ). Now you are saying conditions exist for the atonement to apply - obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

So which is it? Does the atonement have no conditions which applies to all, even heathens? Or does it have conditions of obedience? If it has conditions of obediences, then how are those who don't obey going to be benefactors?

Now, let me add one more component when we're discussing both salvation and the atonement: Timing.
When are we/were we/will be saved?
When are we/were we/will be atoned for?

These are important questions, and are not to be ignored. I'm truly interested in your perpective on those 2 Q.

54 posted on 03/02/2010 9:11:31 AM PST by Colofornian (If you're not going to drink the coffee, at least wake up and smell it.)
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To: Godzilla

The ultimate LDS salvation is still through Jesus Christ, but it is conditional. In the same way salvation as taught by the Protestants is conditional upon belief.

There is no way around it, belief itself is a work. Is it the work which does the saving? NO, only Jesus Christ saves, but belief(a work) is His condition. I really don’t see how this is debatable in reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.


55 posted on 03/02/2010 9:25:26 AM PST by acipher
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To: Colofornian

300 words, not going to read it.


56 posted on 03/02/2010 9:26:42 AM PST by acipher
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To: acipher; Colofornian
Well, at least read the first "100 words".

There's good info there.

57 posted on 03/02/2010 9:34:03 AM PST by SZonian (There are times when we have to tell loved ones truths that hurt. We do so because we care for them.)
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To: SZonian; acipher; Colofornian

Or the last 100.


58 posted on 03/02/2010 9:35:07 AM PST by SZonian (There are times when we have to tell loved ones truths that hurt. We do so because we care for them.)
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To: SZonian; acipher; Colofornian

Or the 100 in the middle.


59 posted on 03/02/2010 9:35:55 AM PST by SZonian (There are times when we have to tell loved ones truths that hurt. We do so because we care for them.)
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To: acipher
The ultimate LDS salvation is still through Jesus Christ, but it is conditional. In the same way salvation as taught by the Protestants is conditional upon belief.

Woah, loads of white wash here dude. While Christian salvation is conditional upon faith/belief - you are telling me that this is equivalent to what mormonism way?

Temple ordinances
following WOW
paying full tithe
Must live a sinless life in this world
the lists I've seen are substantially longer. Your salvation is CONDITIONAL upon you completely pure, complete and sinless behavior.

My salvation is by God's GRACE and as Paul emphatically states - NOT OF WORKS (Eph 2:8-9), therefore belief/faith cannot be a work.

The bible debates your observation -

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, HAS [echei] eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life” (John 5:24)

The grammar of the text (5:24) speaks the opposite. Starting with the first clause: “He who hears [akouōn] My word, and believes [pisteuōn] Him who sent Me”. The Greek verb akouōn (lit. “hearing”) is a singular present active participle. The verb pisteuōn (lit. “believing”) is also a singular present active participle. Note that both verbs are in the present tense, literally: “the one hearing and the one believing.”

Then the phrase: “has [echei] eternal life.” The verb echei (“has”) is the singular present active indicative of echō. The indicative mood of the verb indicates the absolute certainty of the event (i.e., “eternal life”). That echei is in the present tense shows that the one believing possesses de facto eternal life presently and continuously. For this reason, the one believing will never come into God’s wrath and judgment (cf. John 10:28).

Not the absence of the long litany of mormon works, requirements, obligations - here is true Christianity.

60 posted on 03/02/2010 9:40:41 AM PST by Godzilla (3-7-77)
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