Who are the Catholics: The Orthodox or The Romanists, or both?

Me

[the_conscience]

I just witnessed a couple of Orthodox posters get kicked off a "Catholic Caucus" thread. I thought, despite their differences, they had a mutual understanding that each sect was considered "Catholic". Are not the Orthodox considered Catholic? Why do the Romanists get to monopolize the term "Catholic"?

I consider myself to be Catholic being a part of the universal church of Christ. Why should one sect be able to use a universal concept to identify themselves in a caucus thread while other Christian denominations need to use specific qualifiers to identify themselves in a caucus thread?

[Mad Dawg]

“SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.”
(shhh! I'm trying to de-sensitize somebody.)
“SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.” “SEE.”

[Petronski]

"SEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!"

[Cronos]

I think that some folks may not even know what they're talking about. You also have Johnnie saying here that "And this in the face of the fact that worldwide there are people who are demon-possessed, worshippers of unclean things still standing at the front of altars controlled by the “SEE”, opening their mouths and having something called “His Body” put in their mouths every Sunday morning. " -- I wonder who Johnie thinks is demon-possesed,

[Admin Moderator]

I don’t see anything obvious in the HTML (not that I’m an expert in such) - maybe you should post it without retaining the FR formatting.

[wagglebee]

(Okay, I'm trying this AGAIN and we'll see how it goes.)

I wrote:
You might recall that one of them was posted to bolster a claim that a certain quote could be found on "thousands" of Catholic websites, only later did we discover that the quote was actually a total fabrication.

To which you responded:
No, I don't recall that. You've tossed out this accusation before with no evidence. Kindly substantiate it now.

Actually, to be an actual accusation I need to accuse a specific person or defined group.

But sure, I will be happy to post this little reminder (it is worth noting that the photo offered as "proof" has NEVER been validated and is totally inconsistent with verifiable photos of the basilica in question):

Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

 

To: wagglebee

 

Seems pretty clear to me. To concoct all this folly about “Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep” should be so anathema to a Christian that they flee from it.

 

449 posted on Tuesday, October 06, 2009 7:41:35 PM by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

 

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

 

To concoct all this folly about “Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep” should be so anathema to a Christian that they flee from it.

For the record, that WOULD be an anathema. Who told you such nonsense? It certainly didn't come from the Catholic Church.

451 posted on 10/06/2009 4:51:45 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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To: wagglebee

 

For the record, that WOULD be an anathema. Who told you such nonsense? It certainly didn't come from the Catholic Church.

It came from THOUSANDS of Roman Catholic websites which say a whole lot more than that about Mary's supernatural powers.

It came from the RCC catechism which has been posted dozens of times by me and others to show the RCC considers Mary to be an active participant in Christ's redemption of the world.

It came from the words of John Paul II who blatantly called Mary a "Co-Redeemer."

It came from Padre Pio who is about to be canonized who stresses over and over that Mary is a "Co-Redeemer" and a "Dispensatrix of all graces."

If these sentences bother you, good! They should. Work to rid your church of this idolatry. God will be glorified as Mary decreases from your sight and Christ appears.

452 posted on 10/06/2009 5:02:18 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

 

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

 

It came from THOUSANDS of Roman Catholic websites which say a whole lot more than that about Mary's supernatural powers.

Then post a link with those exact words since you are attributing it as a direct quote.

453 posted on 10/06/2009 5:05:12 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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To: wagglebee

“Then post a link with those exact words since you are attributing it as a direct quote.”

Here. Try this link, one among thousands.

http://www.mgardens.org/HSMGP.html

~~”Thus, filled with divine grace and raised to union with God, Mary, in her immaculate purity, utter humility, and total fidelity to God’s word, prompting and bestowal, shared in the divine procreativity in her Divine Maternity of God the Son incarnate as Jesus; SHARED AS CO-REDEEMER IN JESUS’ SACRIFICIAL REDEMPTION OF THE WORLD; and SHARES, AS UNIVERSAL MEDIATRIX, in his sending of the divine grace, light, wisdom and power of God, the Holy Spirit to the world - for its culmination in the building and coming of God’s Peaceable Kingdom, and its transfiguration on the last day, with the universal resurrection, into the eternal New Heaven and New Earth.”~~

This is what is being taught to Roman Catholics and believed by Roman Catholics. Repent.

456 posted on 10/06/2009 5:18:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

 

First of all that is someone's website, it IS NOT in any way a Church website.

This is what you attributed as a direct quote:

“Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep”

If you are purporting it to be a factual teaching of the Church it is up to YOU to provide proof of it.

458 posted on 10/06/2009 5:23:09 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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To: wagglebee

 

Yours is the all-too-common response. You asked for a link and I gave it to you from a Catholic website. But it's not enough.

I have also linked you to soon-to-be-sainted Padre Pio's idiotic rantings about a hundred times. For the sake of clarity, HERE IT IS AGAIN...

PADRE PIO AND THE MOTHER CO-REDEMPTRIX

"...according to the teaching of St. Pio of Pietrelcina, we should be eternally grateful to "our dear Coredemptrix" and to our "Mediatrix and Dispensatrix of all graces.""

And of course, there are the words of your pope as outlined in this piece by a Roman Catholic scholar...

WHY NOW IS THE TIME FOR A DOGMA OF MARY

The Pope's new apostolic letter "Rosarium Virginis Mariae" (The Rosary of the Virgin Mary) has rekindled interest in Our Lady's role in the life of Christ and in salvation history. Mark Miravalle, a leading proponent for having Mary declared Co-redemptrix, offered his views with ZENIT. Miravalle is professor of theology and Mariology at Franciscan University of Steubenville and president of Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici...

This is what the majority of Roman Catholics believe. Where are they learning this? Are they learning lies? Who are their teachers if not the Roman Catholic church and its representatives?

I've also posted links to the RCC catechism which use these same words and images which is obviously why these Roman Catholics feel free to repeat this theory of Mary as co-redeemer and dispensatrix of all graces as fact.

They hold a lie in their right hand.

460 posted on 10/06/2009 5:38:57 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

 

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

 

You provided the quote below, why is it so difficult to produce a link?

“Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep”

461 posted on 10/06/2009 5:40:27 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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To: wagglebee; Alex Murphy; Gamecock; Mr Rogers; blue-duncan; Marysecretary; HarleyD; wmfights; ...

 

This is the RC method of debate - pick at inconsequentials. It's your dime. Follow your heart. Remove the quotation marks and the sentence still stand in a variety of wordings -- Roman Catholics believe Mary is on the cross with Christ helping Christ to redeem His sheep.

Will the following photo help?

 

From the following link comes these quotations from the Vatican II Council...

“As St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ... ‘death through Eve, LIFE THROUGH MARY.’ This UNION OF THE MOTHER WITH THE SON IN THE WORK OF SALVATION is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 56, pp. 380-381).

“Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but BY HER MANIFOLD INTERCESSION CONTINUES TO BRING US THE GIFTS OF ETERNAL SALVATION. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of ADVOCATE, HELPER, BENEFACTRESS, and MEDIATRIX” (Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, chap. 8, II, 62, pp. 382-383).

A plaque in the Chapel of the Virgin of the Grace at Saints Vincent and Anastasius Church in Rome says, “Cardinal Benedetto Odescalchi, who became the pope with the name of Innocent XI, initiated THE WORSHIP OF THE IMAGE, placed on the altar in 1677, and wanted his heart to be buried here, not in the main chapel.”

463 posted on 10/06/2009 5:57:31 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

 

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

 

Remove the quotation marks and...

So what you represented as a quote was not in fact a quote.

472 posted on 10/06/2009 7:30:17 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)

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To: Dr. Eckleburg

First you say something is a quote, then when I ask for a citation you try to attribute it somewhere else, then you finally admit it’s not a quote at all. Now you are calling it inconsequential?

If this is what passes for “debate” among the Machenites it’s surprising Machen’s little subsect of a sect is unable to find members.

497 posted on 10/07/2009 4:39:58 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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To: Petronski

 

I removed the quotations marks and STILL the words and thoughts and concepts are found in ALL the many links I offered.

Deny the printed word all you want. Doesn't change the truth. Rome puts Mary on the cross with Christ, as in this church outside Rome...

 

475 posted on 10/06/2009 7:38:48 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)

 

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5,065 posted on Wednesday, January 20, 2010 8:09:42 AM by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)

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[wagglebee]

I’ve got a lot of “gaps” now, but at least you can read it!

[Cronos]

Let's repeat post #4740 by John Leland1789:
"once more I believe in the See of Jesus Christ. There were churches following Christ up into the Caucuses Mountains and Eastern Europe, and all the way to Northwest Europe in the first three centuries which had never heard of the “See of Rome.”

All the subsequent posts are hilarious attempts to back out once that statement was proven false.

[Alamo-Girl]

The only thing I recall being mentioned on the photographer's website was that the picture was taken at a graveyard in Nicaragua. I never saw a mention of inscriptions, name plates, artist's name, etc. As far as I know, the title was his own.

[Mad Dawg]

There is none so blind as he who will not [choose one]
(a) take off his sunglasses.
(b) stop sticking his finger in his eyes.
(c) watch Glen Beck at 5PM Eastern
(d)
"SEE"

[ArrogantBustard]

Thank you.

[Cronos]

There were churches in Rome, not one central diocese all through the first century, and many believers who traveled north had never been to Rome, and didn’t have any connection with any church(es) there.

Strawmand alert 2 — that’s not the statement you made, you said “There were people and groups in N-W EUrope that did not know of the See of Rome”. I pointed out that that statement was false, wrong, incorrect, historically silly.”

[wagglebee]

The only thing I recall being mentioned on the photographer's website was that the picture was taken at a graveyard in Nicaragua. I never saw a mention of inscriptions, name plates, artist's name, etc. As far as I know, the title was his own.

Not only that, the photo shows a cross LEANING on a person. We have ZERO indication who that person is. Without a photo to put it in perspective, we don't really know what it is.

It is also worth noting that Nicaragua is prone to major earthquakes AND had a decade long civil war. So, without any older photos, it is impossible to know how it's supposed to look.

[NoGrayZone]

Like I said, I don't believe any of your blessing are truthful. I believe you use them as sarcastic responses.

There is no genuinity in them what so ever.

You could take some lessons from Quix.

[Cronos]

In a gesture of maganimity, I will concede that the Christians of later Bohemia did not expect papal nuncios to jet into the clearing they made in the woods, step out of the plane in watered silk cassocks, and force everyone in sight to submit to a rubber chicken dinner made even worse with interminable addresses.

you mean they didn't use Jet planes in 45 AD?? *shock*

[Cronos]

True. And that’s not really conclusive proof that The Church as a whole believes something. That’s what we dispute.

[NoGrayZone]

'Umm, this is referring to Jerusalem, not a self professed Christian who spurns the blessing of another Christian with a sneer'

Yes, I do sneer, at all lies. I do not believe her blessings. I do believe they are used as sarcastic responses and are disingenuous, at the least.

"We are not to rise against out brother "without cause". Matthew 5:22. ("But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment") "

I am in no danger of judgment. Anyone can go look at this person's posts and see the sarcasm dripping off every one of her "blessings".

Okay, maybe not every one, but to those whom disagree with her.

[esquirette]

“The Choice for Christ by an individual is not God forcing you what to choose.”

Asking if our choice is inside or outside of God’s will, is not analogous to asking if green is up. That is an illogical association. It presumes two questions. I have already set a clear predicate that establishes only one question.

The arguments presented by you and other Catholics continually introduce new terms and associations, i.e. ‘forcing.’ These new introductions change meanings and therefore the answers presented.

The issue of the sovereignty of God is at the very core of our dispute. Catholicism clearly holds that He is not sovereign, and you have so stated by your responses.

At this point, in any fact finding tour, be it legal or philosophical, the question would be accepted as asked and answered:

Your answer to my question (Is the mortal’s choice inside or outside of God’s will?), is, therefore, outside, and I give you the last word:

“The Choice for Christ by an individual is not God forcing you what to choose.”

[wagglebee]

Here are VERIFIABLE photos taken both inside and outside of the basilica in question and NONE of them have ANYTHING resembling the photo in question.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2371453/posts?page=1176#1176

Be sure to note the ABSENCE of any fleur-de-lis which figures prominently in the photo of dubious origin.

[Gamecock]

The way that Roman Catholics deny Mary Worship just cracks me up.

Doc, remember that I told you we went to Venice a couple of months back?

One of the sights we visited was the St. Mary of the Friars, more commonly known as "The Friar's Church."

Inside, at the central "altar" is a masterpiece by Titian titled "The Assumption."

Now that you have seen the piece, let me take you to a picture of the entire altar, what the visitor/RC sees from the cheap seats:

As you stand there you see that the "altar" is overwhelmed by the size and color of this work.

Now, look for the cross. Give up?

Squint your eyes and look at the 7:00 O'clock position relative to the painting, (your left and below) and there he is! Note: In this picture it looks like Jesus is glowing, but he's not.

Isn't that something! There is Jesus on a cross. Tucked away in the corner, really looks like He is there as an afterthought. Mary clearly is the centerpiece of the worship arena.

(Disclaimer: These are not my pictures, but lifted from elsewhere)

[vladimir998]

Gee, I hate to rain on the anti-Catholic parade here, but I’ve been to Rome twice and I’ve seen that particular cross twice. On one side it shows Christ actually hanging on the cross. On the other side it shows Mary cradling the Christ child in her arms standing on a crescent moon. It is clear that the corpus of Christ pre-dates the Mary and baby Jesus figure. The people who put the Mary and baby Jesus figure there did not portray her as nailed to the cross. Instead the simply use the back of the cross as a pole to hold the Mary and baby Jesus sculpture.

Italians, not being poorly educated anti-Catholics who constantly misjudge things - including art, get it. It’s not Mary on the cross. It’s Mary and the baby Jesus on the back of a pole. Christ is on the cross on the other side.

This is almost as bad as when anti-Catholic morons tried to pass off a statue of a Catholic martyr, a woman, who was crucified by her pagan father as a statue showing Mary nailed to the Cross.