Posted on 02/14/2009 6:41:48 PM PST by restornu
Was Hebrew DNA recently found in American Indian populations in South America? According to Scott R. Woodward, executive director of Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation, a DNA marker, called the "Cohen modal haplotype," sometimes associated with Hebrew people, has been found in Colombia, Brazil and Bolivia.
But it probably has nothing to do with the Book of Mormon -- at least not directly.
For years several critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and of the Book of Mormon have claimed that the lack of Hebrew DNA markers in living Native American populations is evidence the book can't be true. They say the book's description of ancient immigrations of Israelites is fictional.
"But," said Woodward, "as Hugh Nibley used to say, 'Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.' "
Critic Thomas Murphy, for example, wrote in one article about how the Cohen modal haplotype had been found in the Lemba clan in Africa. The Lemba clan's oral tradition claims it has Jewish ancestors.
Murphy then complained, "If the (Book of Mormon) documented actual Israelite migrations to the New World, then one would expect to find similar evidence to that found in a Lemba clan in one or more Native American populations. Such evidence, however, has not been forthcoming."
Until now.
So will Murphy and other critics use this new evidence of Hebrew DNA markers to prove the Book of Mormon is correct? Probably not. But neither should anyone else.
Why?
According to Woodward, the way critics have used DNA studies to attack the Book of Mormon is "clearly wrong." And it would be equally wrong to use similar DNA evidence to try to prove it.
This is because "not all DNA (evidence) is created equal," Woodward said.
According to Woodward, while forensic DNA (popularized in TV shows like "CSI") looks for the sections of DNA that vary greatly from individual to individual, the sections of DNA used for studying large groups are much smaller and do not change from individual to individual.
Studies using this second type of DNA yield differing levels of reliability or, as Woodward calls it, "resolution."
At a lower resolution the confidence in the results goes down. At higher resolution confidence goes up in the results.
Guess which level of resolution critics of the Book of Mormon use?
The critics' problem now is what they do with the low-resolution discovery of Hebrew DNA in American Indian populations.
For people who believe that the Book of Mormon is a true account, the problem is to resist the temptation to misuse this new discovery.
Woodward says that most likely, when higher-resolution tests are used, we will learn that the Hebrew DNA in native populations can be traced to conquistadors whose ancestors intermarried with Jewish people in Spain or even more modern migrations.
Ironically, it is the misuse of evidence that gave critics fuel to make their DNA arguments in the first place. According to Woodward, the critics are attacking the straw man that all American Indians are only descendants of the migrations described in the Book of Mormon and from no other source.
Although some Latter-day Saints have assumed this was the case, this is not a claim the Book of Mormon itself actually makes. Scholars have argued for more than 50 years that the book allows for the migrations meeting an existing population.
This completely undermines the critics' conclusions. They argue with evangelic zeal that the Book of Mormon demands that no other DNA came to America but from Book of Mormon groups.
Yet, one critic admitted to Woodward that he had never read the Book of Mormon.
Woodward also sees that it is essential to read the Book of Mormon story closely to understand what type of DNA the Book of Mormon people would have had. The Book of Mormon describes different migrations to the New World. The most prominent account is the 600-B.C. departure from Jerusalem of a small group led by a prophet named Lehi. But determining Lehi's DNA is difficult because the book claims he is not even Jewish, but a descendant of the biblical Joseph.
According to Woodward, even if you assume we knew what DNA to look for, finding DNA evidence of Book of Mormon people may be very difficult. When a small group of people intermarry into a large population, the DNA markers that might identify their descendants could entirely disappear -- even though their genealogical descendants could number in the millions.
This means it is possible that almost every American Indian alive today could be genealogically related to Lehi's family but still retain no identifiable DNA marker to prove it. In other words, you could be related genealogically to and perhaps even feel a spiritual kinship with an ancestor but still not have any vestige of his DNA.
Such are the vagaries, ambiguities and mysteries of the study of DNA.
So will we ever find DNA from Lehi's people? Woodward hopes so.
"I don't dismiss the possibility," said Woodward, "but the probability is pretty low."
Woodward speculated about it, imagining he were able to identify pieces of DNA that would be part of Lehi's gene pool. Then, imagine if a match was found in the Native American population.
But even then, Woodward would be cautious. "It could have been other people who share the same (DNA) markers," said Woodward about the imaginary scenario.
"It's an amazingly complex picture. To think that you can prove (group relationships) like you can use DNA to identify a (criminal) is not on the same scale of scientific inquiry."
Like the Book of Mormon itself, from records buried for centuries in the Hill Cumorah, genetic "proof" may remain hid up unto the Lord.
Sorry; but CLARITY is not observed in JS' claim.
Likewise - none is seen in yours.
NONE of us do!
She seems to refer to it in an oblique way, but never articulates any UNTRUTHFULLNESS the she had seen in Presbyterianism in comparison to MORMONism.
But how would you account for the Jews who knew there tribes in Ancient Israel that brought fourth the Christian faith? basically all the first followers of Jesus were Jews? not one gentile, they all had families all jews as well? did they just fizzle out as fas as there DNA is concerned? Why would they have less Hebrew DNA then of a Modern Jewish person who does not know there tribe or has been assimilated?
Or say a Jew who converts to another religion? how does that change there DNA? this is what I don’t understand what you are saying in regards to genetics?
You are either a Jew or a Gentile..What does it matter if you convert to Islam Christianity, Scientology etc...
Flimsy linkage and tenuous similarities are not EVIDENCE.
...however, there is evidence to support... ...if you want to look for it.
This addresses NOTHING about the UNTRUTH of PRESBYTERIANism.
There is more I could never get answers to my questions that the Lord Jesus Christ talked about in the Bible but the clergy would just dismiss it as though that made it alright.
This addresses NOTHING about the UNTRUTH of PRESBYTERIANism.
So I search for 18 years did not expect my question to be answered by the LDS but that is where I found truth witness by the power of the Holy Ghost.
So... just what was UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANism? (According to the Holy Ghost)
There is more evidence that the moon is inhabited with people dressed up like quakers than there is for the bom mythology.
I was on a quest for 18 years.
If the clergy does not know the answer to a questions the honorable thing to do is to say I don't know, not say there is no more that was not true, even if one don't accept the LDS they should acknowledge the door is still open to be fullfilled.
As I observe there is much that still has to come to pass before the second comming of Jesus from the mainstream version.
for a few the comming of Elijah and Ephesians 4 There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism—Apostles and prophets essential to the Church—Saints exhorted to live righteously—They are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
The mainstream still does not have its apostles; and some, prophets;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The fact of the various doctrine among the mainstream there is not true unity of faith.
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Many still in the mainstream seem to be tossed and fro in the earth because of endless revision of doctrine down through the ages
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Every meetinghouse of TCOJCOLDS is the same unitifed one in Christ.
As for Joseph smith, it’s pretty clear (except for those who don’t want to see) that Joseph had a problem with the trinity after being called as a prophet and seeing Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).
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1. It’s not CLEAR...
2. Where’s the written documentation that states “Joseph had a problem with the trinity after being called as a prophet and seeing Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).” in Joe Smith’s own words...
3. If Joe Smith said he saw “Jesus stand on the right hand of God (just like Stephen).”, where’s the documentation ???
4. Joe Smith alleges that he saw “two personages” in a grove...that the “two personages” came to him...
Stephen looked into HEAVEN and saw Jesus at the right hand of God...
Act 7:55 But he, (Stephen) being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into Heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55, 56
Nope, definitely no the same...
Even Joe Smith never said it was the same...
I was on a quest for 18 years.
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So was the Pilgrim in Pilgrim’s Progress...but he found what he was looking for...
God says...
“Seek Me while I may be found...”
You turned over the wrong rock and found an insect that you decided would profit you better than the God of the Bible..
The LORD is with you, while ye be with Him; and if ye seek Him, He will be found of you; but if ye forsake Him, He will forsake you. 2 Chronicles 15:2
I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. Isaiah 45:19
Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Isaiah 51:1
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: Isaiah 55:6
And ye shall seek me, and find [me], when ye shall search for me with all your heart. Jeremiah 29:13
Call unto me and I will answer Thee; I will show you great and mighty things Jeremiah 33:3
For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live: Amos 5:4
How many times does one have to tell you not to put words in my mouth
Your willful thoughts do not speak for me!
the moon is inhabited with people dressed up like quakers (Joe Smith)
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The Moonies were planning to vote in a bloc for Joe Smith for POTUS...
And dont forget Brigham Young said that the sun has people living on it too...
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
But were they eligible to vote ????
Those things are not doctrine and are hearsay to enable fodders for the loathsome!
How many times does one have to tell you not to put words in my mouth
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I havent been anywhere near your mouth...
But here...
The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; Romans 10:8
I guess God is doing that...
Your willful thoughts do not speak for me!
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No, I noticed that..
THe scriptures of God that I post, you choose to reject...
You prefer the pagan thoughts of the fraud and apostate, Joe Smith...
Joe Smith did not speak for God...
Nor did Brigham Young or any of the profit seeking wolves of mormonism since them...
Godzilla - There is more evidence that the moon is inhabited with people dressed up like quakers than there is for the bom mythology.
Resty - Those things are not doctrine and are hearsay to enable fodders for the loathsome!
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Resty, Godzilla never said there were people on the moon...
He never said it was true...
he was merely stating that the mormons believe that...
And yes, the book of mormon and the other wicked beliefs of Joe Smith and mormonism are loathsome...
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. 2 Corinthians 6:17
Every meetinghouse of TCOJCOLDS is the same unitifed one in Christ.
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Then how do you explain that “christ” is not glorified there ???
Instead of giving a testimony of Jesus Christ the Lord...
Mormons give a “testimony” of their “belief” in the “church” and that Joe Smith is the “prophet” of the mormon god...
Kinda like the Islamic...”Allah is god and Mohammad is his prophet...”
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Ephesians 4:14
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If you actually READ that scripture instead of just cutting and pasting from the FARMS/FAIR webpage...
And obeyed it...
You wouldnt stay in that “ wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” called mormonism...
Nothing was cut and pasted from the FARMS/FAIR webpage...
you are assuming again making it personal and mind reading!
Nothing was cut and pasted from the FARMS/FAIR webpage...
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Never ever ?????
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