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Life On Gold Plates - (LDS) Open
http://lifeongoldplates.blogspot.com/2008/08/bushmans-introduction-to-joseph-smith.html ^ | August 14, 2008 | Richard Bushman

Posted on 08/15/2008 1:47:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

August 14, 2008

Bushman's Introduction to "Joseph Smith and His Critics" Seminar

The following is Richard Bushman's introduction to the 2008 summer seminar, “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” given July 29, 2008. I also have a poor mp3 recording of the paper and in the next week or so I plan on blogging any additions Bushman made in reading the paper to the group. For my thoughts on the seminar in general, see "Preliminary Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," and "Follow-up Thoughts on the 2008 Bushman Seminar." For notes on the presentations themselves, see Juvenile Instructor's "Notes on the 2008 Bushman Seminar," parts one and two.

Introduction
Richard Bushman

Increasingly teachers and church leaders at all levels are approached by Latter-day Saints who have lost confidence in Joseph Smith and the basic miraculous events of church history. They doubt the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, many of Joseph’s revelations, and much besides. They fall into doubt after going on the Internet and finding shocking information about Joseph Smith based on documents and facts they had never heard before. A surprising number had not known about Joseph Smith’s plural wives. They are set back by differences in the various accounts of the First Vision. They find that Egyptologists do not translate the Abraham manuscripts the way Joseph Smith did, making it appear that the Book of Abraham was a fabrication. When they come across this information in a critical book or read it on one of the innumerable critical Internet sites, they feel as if they had been introduced to a Joseph Smith and a Church history they had never known before. They undergo an experience like viewing the famous picture of a beautiful woman who in a blink of an eye turns into an old hag. Everything changes. What are they to believe?

Often church leaders, parents, and friends, do not understand the force of this alternate view. Not knowing how to respond, they react defensively. They are inclined to dismiss all the evidence as anti-Mormon or of the devil. Stop reading these things if they upset you so much, the inquirer is told. Or go back to the familiar formula: scriptures, prayer, church attendance.

The troubled person may have been doing all of these things sincerely, perhaps even desperately. He or she feels the world is falling apart. Everything these inquirers put their trust in starts to crumble. They want guidance more than ever in their lives, but they don’t seem to get it. The facts that have been presented to them challenge almost everything they believe. People affected in this way may indeed stop praying; they don’t trust the old methods because they feel betrayed by the old system. Frequently they are furious. On their missions they fervently taught people about Joseph Smith without knowing any of these negative facts. Were they taken advantage of? Was the Church trying to fool them for its own purposes?
These are deeply disturbing questions. They shake up everything. Should I stay in the Church? Should I tell my family? Should I just shut up and try to get along? Who can help me?

At this point, these questioners go off in various directions. Some give up on the Church entirely. They find another religion or, more likely these days, abandon religion altogether. Without their familiar Mormon God, they are not sure there is any God at all. They become atheist or agnostic. Some feel the restrictions they grew up with no longer apply. The strength has been drained out of tithing, the Word of Wisdom, and chastity. They partly welcome the new freedom of their agnostic condition. Now they can do anything they please without fear of breaking the old Mormon rules. The results may not be happy for them or their families.

Others piece together a morality and a spiritual attitude that stops them from declining morally, but they are not in an easy place. When they go to church, , they are not comfortable. Sunday School classes and Sacrament meeting talks about Joseph Smith and the early church no longer ring true. How can these people believe these “fairy tales,” the inquirers ask. Those who have absorbed doses of negative material live in two minds: their old church mind which now seems naive and credulous, and their new enlightened mind with its forbidden knowledge learned on the internet and from critical books.

A friend who is in this position described the mindset of the disillusioned member this way:

“Due to the process of learning, which they have gone through, these [two-minded] LDS often no longer accept the church as the only true one (with the only true priesthood authority and the only valid sacred ordinances), but they see it as a Christian church, in which good, inspired programs are found as well as failure and error. They no longer consider inspiration, spiritual and physical healing, personal and global revelation limited to the LDS church. In this context, these saints may attend other churches, too, where they might have spiritual experiences as well. They interpret their old spiritual experiences differently, understanding them as testimonies from God for them personally, as a result of their search and efforts, but these testimonies don’t necessarily have to be seen as a confirmation that the LDS church is the only true one.

“Since the social relationships between them and other ward (or stake) members suffer (avoidance, silence, even mobbing) because of their status as heretics, which is usually known via gossip, and since the extent of active involvement and range of possible callings are reduced because of their nonconformity in various areas, there is a risk that they end up leaving the church after all, because they are simply ignored by the majority of the other members.”

He then offers a recommendation: 

“It is necessary that the church not only shows more support and openness to these ‘apostates’ but also teaches and advises all members, bishops, stake presidents etc., who usually don’t know how to deal with such a situation in terms of organizational and ecclesiastical questions and – out of insecurity – fail to treat the critical member with the necessary love and respect that even a normal stranger would receive.”

Those are the words of someone who has lost belief in many of the fundamentals and is working out a new relationship to the Church. Other shaken individuals recover their belief in the basic principles and events but are never quite the same as before. Their knowledge, although no longer toxic, gives them a new perspective. They tend to be more philosophic and less dogmatic about all the stories they once enjoyed. Here are some of the characteristics of people who have passed through this ordeal but managed to revive most of their old beliefs.

1. They often say they learned the Prophet was human. They don’t expect him to be a model of perfect deportment as they once thought. He may have taken a glass of wine from time to time, or scolded his associates, or even have made business errors. They see his virtues and believe in his revelations but don’t expect perfection.

2. They also don’t believe he was led by revelation in every detail. They see him as learning gradually to be a prophet and having to feel his way at times like most Church members. In between the revelations, he was left to himself to work out the methods of complying with the Lord’s commandments. Sometimes he had to experiment until he found the right way.

3. These newly revived Latter-day Saints also develop a more philosophical attitude toward history. They come to see (like professional historians) that facts can have many interpretations. Negative facts are not necessarily as damning as they appear at first sight. Put in another context along side other facts, they do not necessarily destroy Joseph Smith’s reputation.

4. Revived Latter-day Saints focus on the good things they derive from their faith–the community of believers, the comforts of the Holy Spirit, the orientation toward the large questions of life, contact with God, moral discipline, and many others. They don’t want to abandon these good things. Starting from that point of desired belief, they are willing to give Joseph Smith and the doctrine a favorable hearing. They may not be absolutely certain about every item, but they are inclined to see the good and the true in the Church.

At the heart of this turmoil is the question of trust. Disillusioned Latter-day Saints feel their trust has been betrayed. They don’t know whom to trust. They don’t dare trust the old feelings that once were so powerful, nor do they trust church leaders. They can only trust the new knowledge they have acquired. Those who come back to the Church are inclined to trust their old feelings. Their confidence in the good things they knew before is at least partially restored. But they sort out the goodness that seems still vital from the parts that now seem no longer tenable. Knowledge not only has given them a choice, it has compelled them to choose. They have to decide what they really believe. In the end, many are more stable and convinced than before. They feel better prepared to confront criticism openly, confident they can withstand it.

- - - -

The members of the seminar on “Joseph Smith and His Critics,” a group of Religious Education and CES faculty who met at BYU for six weeks in the summer of 2008, are among those who have known Latter-day Saints in this state of confusion and doubt. We have had many opportunities to talk to questioners about their problems and admit that we have often fallen short in our answers. We came together in hopes of learning to do better. Besides gathering information on a series of specific issues, we have discussed how best to deal with questioning Saints. What way of speaking is most likely to win their trust and convince them we have their best interests at heart?

We began by agreeing that criticisms of Joseph Smith should not be dismissed as foolish or purely evil. The negative attacks that disturb first-time readers are usually based on facts, not merely prejudiced fabrications. To play down the force of the criticism, we believe, only convinces the seekers that we do not understand. We appear to be sweeping trouble under the rug. They may have been devastated by a criticism; we must show that we understand why. Consequently, the seminar took as its first principle to state the negative argument as fully and accurately as we can. We try not to minimize the difficulty or prejudice the case against the critic. In no other way can we persuade the doubters that we understand the problem.

Secondly, we try to avoid dogmatic answers. Rather than replace the dogmatic negative attacks of the critics with our own dogmatic answers, we attempt to show that a more positive interpretation is possible. Critics often claim that Joseph’s sins were so egregious as to utterly disqualify him as a prophet. We can understand their viewpoint, but we think there is another side to the story. Rather than destroy the critics, we want to loosen their grip. In the long run, we believe this approach will persuade questioners more effectively than claims to certainty where none is possible. We believe in stating our own strong convictions about the church as a whole, but we do not to pretend to perfect knowledge about complex historical questions.

We know that airing criticisms troubles many Latter-day Saints. Like most Church teachers, the members of the seminar do not want to draw attention to questions that will only unsettle faithful members. But we also feel that silence is not the answer. The absence of instruction troubles questioners more than anything. They feel they have been betrayed because they came through their Church classes ignorant of the devastating information now a few clicks away on the internet. The gaps in their education leave them disillusioned and angry.

To counteract this lack of preparation, the seminar members have taken as our motto the scripture that begins: “As all have not faith, teach one another” (D&C 88:118). We are encouraged by the scriptural recognition that not all have faith, and by the appealing remedy, “teach one another.” For many questioners, loneliness is the heart of the problems. No one seems to understand. We are enjoined by this scripture to find these seekers and bring them into a fellowship of inquiry. We hope that our papers will help Church teachers create safe havens where questions may be asked and answers explored--where we can teach one another.
____________________________________________
Richard L. Bushman is a Professor Emeritus of History, Columbia University, the current holder of the Howard W. Hunter visiting professorship in Mormon studies at Claremont Graduate University, and author of the recent biography Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

 


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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To: greyfoxx39

LOL...


181 posted on 08/17/2008 6:17:57 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: Colofornian
Every time I see that quote I have to stop for a few seconds and catch my breath...
182 posted on 08/17/2008 6:19:58 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: DanielLongo
If your assumption of which scripture he cited is correct...

Why do you assume it's only my assumption that John 10 is a direct citation to the unjust judges of Psalm 82? Would you believe it if I told you that these same linkages are already conceded by the Deseret Book Co -- the official publishing arm of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

There is absolutely no doubt among all camps that Jesus in John 10 is directly referencing Psalm 82:
Common sense tells you that (I mean what is Jesus referencing to these Jewish leaders if not Ps. 82?)
Historic Christianity and contemporary Christianity links the two passages.
And so does Deseret Book Co: The Deseret Book Co. published over 30 years ago "A Topical Guide to the Scriptures of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." In its index under "Eternal Progression: Man, Potential to Become Like Heavenly Father" in the "M" section under "Man," it specifically lists BOTH John 10:34 AND Ps. 82:6...The only other verses in the OT cited by the LDS church in this section are Ps. 8:5-6, Gen 1:26, and Gen. 3:22 -- none of which uses the specific word of "gods".

...and your assumption of what it means is also correct, then why would Jesus use that scripture to defend Himself?

He is appealing to their already established sense of justice based upon their law. He is saying: "Listen, your forefathers didn't even consider these unjust mortal 'god-judges' as 'stone-able,' did they? That being the case, if those unjust human gods were not subject to stones, why would you deem me -- a divine-human (Just) Judge who does the works of God -- as subject to stoning for blasphemy?"

(It's that simple)

If it refers to “unjust gods”, then Jesus would be calling himself and unjust god. That makes no sense. I think your explanation is wrong.

No.

(1) He is referencing the mortality of these judges (see Ps. 82:7 which talks about their deaths to come). Jesus was likewise fully man, and allowed Himself to die -- also because of unjust man...the difference was that the judges in Ps. 82 died because of their own sin...whereas Jesus died because of the sin of other men. So, tell me, what's wrong with Jesus saying that he was fully man who died because of sin -- albeit men's sin not his own?

(2) Likewise, He was recognizing that the judges referenced by God were infused with divine authority. What's wrong with Jesus also claiming that He was infused with divine authority (see Matthew 28:18)?

(3) Finally, LDS continuously fail to distinguish between the Biblical distinction between God-by-nature and gods-who-are-no-gods-by-nature. Perhaps the best verse for this is Gal. 4:8: "Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods." (Gal. 4:8) This is the major distinction of Jesus to the judges He referenced.

183 posted on 08/17/2008 6:45:45 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: ejonesie22
John 1:1,14: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.” “And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.”

Let me ask you this, if the Word is Jesus Christ (He is), then who was Christ with? God! Was He with Himself? Sounds kind of silly don't you think? And how does your interpretation of John 1:1,14 square w/ John 17:11,21-23? How do you reconcile that description of one?

184 posted on 08/17/2008 7:41:08 PM PDT by Reno232
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To: restornu
Ok. Rusty you are making this way to complicated.

What I sincerely want to know is this: Who is Jesus?

Not what some else says but what you say to the question.

The second thing is this: is Jesus a son of god or The Son of God?

For some reason you will not answer without using the words or thoughts of someone else.

I really want to know what you think,

185 posted on 08/17/2008 8:08:16 PM PDT by svcw (There is no plan B.)
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To: Reno232
There is one God, he is all powerful and exists in a way beyond simplification. I know that wold mess up the whole “god was once a man like us therefore one day we will be gods too” bit, but I can't help that. There is one God and only one God, no polytheism. The Bible is clear, Jesus the word made flesh, it is elegantly simple yet gloriously complex. We become one with the father in spirit by accepting his gift of Grace.

No “interpretation” needed, it is quite clear and concise.

186 posted on 08/17/2008 8:17:35 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: ejonesie22
Actually, I agree, the Bible is quite clear & John 17:11,21-23 is abundantly clear on the meaning of "one".

Albeit I'm disappointed you didn't answer my question fully, I'm not surprised either. It's a tough question for Trinitarians to answer.

Here's some more for you to consider:

Isaiah 48:16 - "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Notice that passage in its context is God speaking. He says there am I, then qualifies it with 3 distinct personages, Lord God, Spirit, and then Me.

Now look at Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Yet in Deuteronomy 6:4 God says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" In this passage the Hebrew word Elohim is used where it is translated LORD. Elohim is a plural noun. More precisely it is the plural of the Hebrew El....Elohim. God is here stating, ONE Lord, but yet plural.

You see this again in Genesis 11:7 - "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.."Now, why wouldn't He just say, I the Lord........, instead of "let Us......."? He did several times elsewhere in the Bible

John 17:11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21 – 23 "

21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:".

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If you would like me to cite noted pre-Nicene creed theologians who taught Christian doctrine contrary to the creeds, I'd be happy to.

Listen, my intent here is not to bash, but rather to share that it's not even as clear cut as you would think or propose.

187 posted on 08/17/2008 8:58:52 PM PDT by Reno232
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To: Utah Binger

You always post the lovliest pictures.

Thanks!


188 posted on 08/17/2008 9:37:58 PM PDT by JRochelle (Obama: I don't want Edwards punished with a baby!)
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To: Reno232; ejonesie22

The cognitive disconnect of some who read the Bible and cannot understand the scriptures which plainly show that God and Christ are separate and distinct beings is amazing.

Luke 22:42 records a portion of Christ’s prayer to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane and states: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

Christ plainly states if it was His will, he would like to remove the cup, however, not His will be done, but the Father’s will be done. If they were ONE as trinitarians assert, there would be no conflicting “wills,” right?

When Christ was on the cross and they were casting lots for his robe, he stated in Luke 23:34: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do .”

If Christ and the Father are one, he wouldn’t have to ask the Father to forgive them, He could simply have forgiven them Himself without asking the Father to do so. He could have simply said: “I forgive them, for they know not what they do.” The scripture only makes sense if Christ and the Father are one in purpose, but are separate and distinct beings.

Christ also said in Matt. 20:23 “And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, IS NOT MINE TO GIVE, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

If Christ and the Father are one in the trinitarian sense, Christ would be able to say who would be allowed to sit on his right and left hand. However, Christ states such privilege ISN’T HIS TO GIVE, but is only God’s to give.

Jesus taught one cannot pour new wine into old bottles. And so it is with many trinitarians. They are, sadly, too steeped in the traditions and creeds of men to have an open mind to discuss the Biblical scriptures that patently contradict the trinity creed.


189 posted on 08/17/2008 10:39:00 PM PDT by ComeUpHigher
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To: svcw
1- Who is Rusty?

2- I have already said I have received a witness by the power of the Holy Spirit, which the scriptures have proclaimed that Jesus is the Son of the living God how many more times should one have to tell you!

Matt. 18:
15 ¶ Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

D&C 6:
26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that there are records which contain much of my gospel, which have been kept back because of the wickedness of the people;

27 And now I command you, that if you have good desires—a desire to lay up treasures for yourself in heaven—then shall you assist in bringing to light, with your gift, those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity.

28 And now, behold, I give unto you, and also unto my servant Joseph, the keys of this gift, which shall bring to light this ministry; and in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

29 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if they reject my words, and this part of my gospel and ministry, blessed are ye, for they can do no more unto you than unto me.

30 And even if they do unto you even as they have done unto me, blessed are ye, for you shall dwell with me in glory.

31 But if they reject not my words, which shall be established by the testimony which shall be given, blessed are they, and then shall ye have joy in the fruit of your labors.

32 Verily, verily, I say unto you, as I said unto my disciples, where two or three are gathered together in my name, as touching one thing, behold, there will I be in the midst of them—even so am I in the midst of you.

190 posted on 08/18/2008 4:06:44 AM PDT by restornu (Here comes that feeling again my heart still yearn for what my mind wonÂ’t accept Investigator)
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To: DanielLongo
There is nothing insightful to any of your posts.

I know!!!

Isn't all that LDS propaganda TERRIBLE!!

191 posted on 08/18/2008 4:08:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DanielLongo
 
I believe restornu sees much of the same futility that the Lord did in speaking to the chief priests and scribes who had their "Bible" when he said in Luke 22:
 
 
I know JUST what you mean!!
 
 
Especially when the LDS Founder® and subsequent leaders FAILED to OBEY the BIBLE as well as the Wonderful Book of Mormon!


 

TRUTH IGNORED
 
 

Smith, Young, Taylor, Pratt, Snow, Kimball, Woodruff ...

 
 
 

 1 Timothy 3:2-3
 2.  Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
 3.  not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money.
 
 
1 Timothy 3:12
   A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
 
 
 Titus 1:6
   An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.




 
BEHOLD!!!!  The Restorative Power  of the Book of Mormon!!
 



 
THE BOOK OF JACOB
THE BROTHER OF NEPHI
CHAPTER 2
 
  24 Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
  25 Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
  26 Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
  27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;
  28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.
  29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.
  30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.
  31 For behold, I, the Lord, have seen the sorrow, and heard the mourning of the daughters of my people in the land of Jerusalem, yea, and in all the lands of my people, because of the wickedness and abominations of their husbands.
  32 And I will not suffer, saith the Lord of Hosts, that the cries of the fair daughters of this people, which I have led out of the land of Jerusalem, shall come up unto me against the men of my people, saith the Lord of Hosts.
 
 

192 posted on 08/18/2008 4:11:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DanielLongo
For someone to preach for money is called priestcraft by the Gospel writers.

Funny you didn't address that point.

Surely you can produce the BIBLE scripture that illustrates YOUR point.

Failing that; perhaps a verse or two from the BoM that states it.

193 posted on 08/18/2008 4:13:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DanielLongo
For someone to preach for money is called priestcraft by the Gospel writers.

Funny you didn't address that point.

Surely you can produced the BIBLE scripture that illustrates YOUR point.

Failing that; perhaps a verse or two from the BoM that states it.

194 posted on 08/18/2008 4:14:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ComeUpHigher; Reno232
A couple simple questions then.

How many Gods are there?

Is Jesus a Deity?

195 posted on 08/18/2008 4:16:32 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: DanielLongo
They do not preach against any other faith. They don't have to.

Because we PUBLISH the stuff and do not have to 'preach' it.

Oh yeah...

Our missionaries will come to your door and tell you all churchs but LDS are wrong. They are not 'preaching', but proclaiming.

--MormonDude(When would be a good time for a couple of our highly trained young folk to stop by your home to help you understand the error of your ways?)

196 posted on 08/18/2008 4:16:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Heh heh...


197 posted on 08/18/2008 4:19:21 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Bigoted Neanderthal Evangelicals support Eric Cantor for VP. Shalom.)
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To: greyfoxx39
Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
 
Not according to the bible!
 
Hebrews 10
 
 1.  The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
 2.  If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
 3.  But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
 4.  because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
 5.  Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
 6.  with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
 7.  Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"
 8.  First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).
 9.  Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.
 10.  And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

198 posted on 08/18/2008 4:22:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
The LDS have never bash Christians but have took counsel from the Lord about those acting in His name only, and not in their hearts.

You need to brush up on your Organization®'s history:

 
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
 

199 posted on 08/18/2008 4:24:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
The LDS have never bash Christians but have took counsel from the Lord about those acting in His name only, and not in their hearts.

You REALLYneed to brush up on your Organization®'s history!

 
 

What is a Christian?

 

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 270

 

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr. , The Elders Journal, v. 1, no. 4, p. 60

 

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176

 

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199

 

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent."
- Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255

 

200 posted on 08/18/2008 4:25:20 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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