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To: ejonesie22
Actually, I agree, the Bible is quite clear & John 17:11,21-23 is abundantly clear on the meaning of "one".

Albeit I'm disappointed you didn't answer my question fully, I'm not surprised either. It's a tough question for Trinitarians to answer.

Here's some more for you to consider:

Isaiah 48:16 - "Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me." Notice that passage in its context is God speaking. He says there am I, then qualifies it with 3 distinct personages, Lord God, Spirit, and then Me.

Now look at Genesis 1:26 - "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." Yet in Deuteronomy 6:4 God says, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:" In this passage the Hebrew word Elohim is used where it is translated LORD. Elohim is a plural noun. More precisely it is the plural of the Hebrew El....Elohim. God is here stating, ONE Lord, but yet plural.

You see this again in Genesis 11:7 - "Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.."Now, why wouldn't He just say, I the Lord........, instead of "let Us......."? He did several times elsewhere in the Bible

John 17:11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17:21 – 23 "

21 that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:".

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

If you would like me to cite noted pre-Nicene creed theologians who taught Christian doctrine contrary to the creeds, I'd be happy to.

Listen, my intent here is not to bash, but rather to share that it's not even as clear cut as you would think or propose.

187 posted on 08/17/2008 8:58:52 PM PDT by Reno232
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To: Reno232; ejonesie22

The cognitive disconnect of some who read the Bible and cannot understand the scriptures which plainly show that God and Christ are separate and distinct beings is amazing.

Luke 22:42 records a portion of Christ’s prayer to his Father in the Garden of Gethsemane and states: “Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.”

Christ plainly states if it was His will, he would like to remove the cup, however, not His will be done, but the Father’s will be done. If they were ONE as trinitarians assert, there would be no conflicting “wills,” right?

When Christ was on the cross and they were casting lots for his robe, he stated in Luke 23:34: “Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do .”

If Christ and the Father are one, he wouldn’t have to ask the Father to forgive them, He could simply have forgiven them Himself without asking the Father to do so. He could have simply said: “I forgive them, for they know not what they do.” The scripture only makes sense if Christ and the Father are one in purpose, but are separate and distinct beings.

Christ also said in Matt. 20:23 “And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, IS NOT MINE TO GIVE, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”

If Christ and the Father are one in the trinitarian sense, Christ would be able to say who would be allowed to sit on his right and left hand. However, Christ states such privilege ISN’T HIS TO GIVE, but is only God’s to give.

Jesus taught one cannot pour new wine into old bottles. And so it is with many trinitarians. They are, sadly, too steeped in the traditions and creeds of men to have an open mind to discuss the Biblical scriptures that patently contradict the trinity creed.


189 posted on 08/17/2008 10:39:00 PM PDT by ComeUpHigher
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