Posted on 07/07/2008 10:39:05 PM PDT by Gamecock
A caller to our weekly radio program asked a question that has come up before: Are Roman Catholics saved? Let me respond to this as best I can. But I need to offer a qualifier because I think this is going to be somewhat dissatisfying for some because I am not going to say a simple "aye" or "nay." My answer is: It kind of depends. The reason I'm saying that is because of certain ambiguities.
My point is this, I think that in the area of the doctrine of salvation, Roman Catholic theology, as I understand it, is unbiblical because salvation depends on faith and works, not just faith alone. This was the specific problem Paul addressed in the book of Galatians and was the subject of the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15: Is simple faith in Jesus adequate, or must gentile followers of Christ now keep the Law as a standard of acceptance before God?
I know not all Catholics would agree that this is a fair way of putting it, but I think that most Catholics would actually say the faith/works equation is accurate. Your faith and your works are what save you. I was raised Catholic and that’s what I was taught. (For my take on the biblical relationship between faith and works, see “Faith & Works: Paul vs. James.”)
Now, I need to add this too. Many Protestants feel the same way. Many Protestants are confused on this issue, so this is not a Catholic vs. Protestant concern so much. It's just that Catholicism across the board has more of an official position that amounts this, where Protestants have a more diversity of views, some that don't even seem to be consistent with Protestantism.
But the fact that one believes Jesus is the Messiah and that He is the savior, not our own efforts, is critical. If you reject this notion, like the Jews do, then as far as I can tell from the biblical revelation, there is no hope for you. That seems to be clear. But when somebody says they believe in Jesus and He is their Savior, but somehow works are mingled in with the picture, then I can't really say to you how much faith that person is putting in Jesus and how much faith that person is putting in their own efforts to satisfy God. If a person has all their faith in their own efforts, then they are going to be judged by their own efforts. It's as simple as that. If they have their faith in Jesus, they will be judged by the merits of Jesus. Anyone judged by their own merits is going to be found wanting. Anyone who is judged by the merits of Jesus is not going to be found wanting because Jesus is not wanting.
What if you are kind of a mixture? I think most Catholics are, frankly. Many Protestants are, as well.
I reflect often on a comment that was made by a friend of mine named Dennis. He was a Roman Catholic brother in Christ that I knew when I was a brand new Christian. He asked me this: "Greg, how much faith does it take to be saved?" I said, "A mustard seed." And he said, "There you go."
And so, it seems to me, there are many Christians—Protestant and Catholic—who believe in Jesus as their savior and have a mustard seed of faith, but are confused about the role of works. I think that Jesus is still Savior in those cases.
My mother had Alzheimer’s too. The story I told at her memorial service was about a Mother’s Day card my brother and sister-in-law sent. We gave it to her on Mother’s Day and she was so happy about the beautiful card! I left it on the coffee table and the next day she picked it up and read it again and exclaimed about how nice it was and it was Mother’s Day again. I just left it there and every time she saw it it was Mother’s Day and she was delighted again.
You know, my hubby has an 84 year old uncle....his wife died a couple of years ago...so the uncle decided to move into senior living situation, where those mundane chores, such as laundry and cooking and cleaning were taken care of for him...
At first he was a bit hesitant, to make the move, but his wife was gone, and they had no children, so he just decided to make the move...
Best thing that ever happened to him...he met some wonderful new friends, and was not just spending time alone, as we had envisioned he would...he lives in Florida, and we live in Washington State, so there was no way for us to check up on him, unless he moved out here, which he did not want to do, or we moved down there, which we did not want to do...
So we were glad that he made the move that he did...and just last Saturday, he got remarried, to an 87 year old lady, that he met at that senior living facility...
They are on their honeymoon right now, in Prague...they will wind up in Paris, as the uncle says, the place for lovers...
I think it is wonderful, for the both of them...so one never knows what happen at any stage of their lives....sometimes changes bring about the greatest results...
The Alzheimers residents always delighted me, I just found them the most precious....many people who work in nursing homes, prefer not to work on Alzheimers wings, as it is often frustrating considering the character of the disease...I, on the other hand would ask to work the Alzheimers wings, as I so enjoyed these particular residents....
Reading the story of your mom, reminds me again, of how these Alzheimers residents are often delighted over and over again, with the very same small thing....they see something, it delights them, they forget about it minutes later, and when they see it again, it is all fresh and new, and they are delighted over again....
That’s great!
With my MIL her daughters are always telling her what she should do and they confuse her to no end but I think we should stand back and let her make her own decisions. She is always calling my husband and asking me to come over and set her straight on everything after my SILs have confused her.
She knows that she is welcome here but if she wants to do something else, even just move to town, it is all right with me.
Yes, I think you are wise....she should be allowed to make her own decisions, so long as she remains safe, doing so...
You're doing both. Quoting directly is great. The whole "so what you're saying is...." is the paraphrasing.
Not at all.
Your continuing efforts to restate Catholic teaching are not necessary.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27
And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - I Corinthians 2:1-5
Even the challenges to His word are beneficial to us because they compel us to "search the Scriptures to see if these things be so."
Are there old snot-nosed brats?
Just wondering.
Thank you for laying aside your objection:
And thank you, dear OLD REGGIE, for your understanding and support.
One way or another, we Christians will always express our love for God surpassingly above all else – and as a distant second, our love for others. There is no way we can bottle it up.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:37-40
Truly, there is nothing a person can say or do that could keep a Christian from loving him – because God is love.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5
To God be the glory!
When someone asked the Moderator if this was permissible, the Mod said yes. And a few of these posters followed through on their threats.
Personally, I prefer it this way.
Mark, you never cease to amaze me.
You implied there were many Calvinists in this discussion and I said there weren't. I said there was me and who else? To which you replied...
"Aside from Old Reggie?"
1,163 posted on 07/19/2008 3:06:05 PM PDT by MarkBsnr
And yet you now say...
"I've never considered you a Calvinist.
Do you forget what you write from one post to the next? Or do you hope none of us is reading these posts and that our memory is worse than yours?
lol. If by "rules" you mean the Bible, you're right. We consult it daily.
You should try it.
Sounds like a match.
Maybe that's why they're so irritable. Deep inside they cannot reconcile the vast discrepancy between the word of God and the pagan dictates of the false bishop of Rome.
Though Rome tries mightily to obscure the grace of God to the point of denying it, still the will of God prevails.
"For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring." -- Acts 17:28
Is Christ only offering us partial payment?
To clarify, I prefer the method both mods are now articulating in keeping FReepmail private.
A slight quibble here or there . . . let me see . . .
Certainly the piercings of the 'Two Edged Sword" are necessary, life and eternal Life.
Ultimately and functionally . . . psychodynamically and spiritually . . . at some point even interpersonally, the hurt is first, foremost and lastingly BETWEEN EACH INDIVIDUAL AND GOD--CERTAINLY PRIMARILY AND ESSENTIALLY.
God alone can heal deeply, comprehensively, lastingly. God alone is the 100% true, just and fair arbiter of the facets and aspects of the hurt from all perspectives. And HIS PERSPECTIVE IS SUPREME in all such matters.
I think for most typical OFFENSES . . . the comment is likely to be . . . WHAT IS THAT TO THEE, FOLLOW THOU ME.
Some of us like to wrap OFFENSES around us like wounded bleeding hides of self-righteousness and then expect God to pretend that our bleeding hide of self-pity is a white robe of righteousness; give us our teddy bear; pat us on the head; hold us on His lap and provide the Eskimo Pie. I don’t recall Him ever complying with that expectation, in my life.
When His attitude is much more—
Interestingly, God insists that we first deal with each other before trying to transact business with Him. . . . leave our gift at the altar and go and be reconciled with our brother . . . then return and offer the gift to God.
Certainly we are called to be gentle and patient. Though there is a time for the opposite of both--with pagans and with believers. We ought not to presume--particularly chronically--that patience and gentleness are NOT called for.
Yet, there are times when patience and gentleness are DESTRUCTIVE to the other(s) involved. Though I think it is crucial for God to make that determination, not our fleshiness--never our fleshiness.
And, if we are not willing rather to be wronged; if we are not willing rather to bear the hurt IN BEHALF OF the jerk, or the cur, or the rebellious one or . . . then maybe we are not the fitting one to respond with the opposite of gentleness and patience.
I agree that it's right to avoid setting out on our own fleshy agency and human "wisdom" with a primary goal of exacting injury and hurt.
Yet, the parent who wishes to spare the rod to avoid hurting the sitter will ultimately cause far more hurt in their avoidance to bring brief bodily pain. There is a time to deliberately bring hurt.
Yet, a goal--a focused goal of bringing hurt vs bringing redemption is likely malicious or sadistic. Deliberately hurting to bring redemption--WHEN HOLY SPIRIT LED--is not, imho, a bad thing.
Humility is rather essential in such front-line undertakings. Though many times, most times, in such contexts, even humility must show itself tough, stalwart, authoritative.
Yes, if injury is to be done, let God handle the scalpel. However, many times, God will handle US AS THE SCALPEL. Refusing to allow God to do so brings us hurt and robs the other of redemptiveness and adds to their hurt.
IF we are broken and loving-heartedly, servant-heartedly, submissively willing enough, then the pain will be pure-er and bring more easily a redemptive result.
When we are not sufficiently broken enough; when our own fleshy agendas are involved . . . then our contaminants . . . uhhhh . . . unnecessarily trouble the process and marble the results.
My 2 cents.
To God Be The Glory, INDEED.
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