Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
It sounds as if you already have it very well figured out, so I will just reiterate what you have stated.
No, we do not worship Mary. We ask her to pray for us, to intercede with her Son for us. We honor her as first among the saints because she carried our Savior, and many Catholics consider to her to have an inside track, if you will, with Jesus. When we pray to Mary we are merely asking her to pray for us, just as we ask humans on earth to pray for us. We never say something like, “Mary, have mercy on us” because she has no control over our fate or the fate of the world. Only God has that power.
From Merriam Webster:
“reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power”
We do not view Mary as a divine being. We view her as a perfect human being worthy of reverence: profound adoring awed respect.
These distinctions are given the theological terms of Latria, Hyperdulia and Dulia, respectively. I imagine most of the Protestant posters would balk at the BCP marriage service which has that beautiful phrase " with my I body I thee worship". They would also object to the old custom of calling persons of certain rank "your worship" heck even "your honor" should be held in suspect. I guess the old plea for justice given by someone petitioning a court " I pray you.." must be stamped out and put on the dust heap with Odin and other gods.
You will never, ever get some Protestants to understand Catholic definition of worship. They do not have the Sacrifice of the Mass so what they call worship we would respectfully call a prayer service or the Liturgy of The Word. It is a perfectly worthy way to praise and honor God but it is not by Catholic and Orthodox understanding full worship. Which includes the Liturgy of The Eucharist as well as the Liturgy of The Word.
I pray that Our Lady will always look kindly upon you and bring your causes before her Son, Our Lord.
Oh, the Protestants love that term. John Paul II may have used that term, but he never implied that Mary was equal-—it was that she had a role to play in God’s plan.
But, because the title is so confusing, and the fact that only One died to atone for our sin, I think it is wrong to use it, lest it confuse people about actual Catholic doctrine.
When we pray to her, we ask for her to interceed on our behalf with her Son, Jesus. I have always found it odd that Protestants would ask other living men to pray for them, but neglect to ask those who are alive in Heaven to do likewise. There's just something deeply wrong there.
This is an interesting statement. My understanding is that the dead are dead until the Resurrection. How then can there be anyone in heaven other than the Father and Christ my Redeamer? How could any of the dead pray for me? This has been one of my central issues with the Church. All of the Saints I'm to ask for help, and even Mary herself are dead unless they were bodily assumed into heaven (which I don't see any proof of). As such, of course we would ask family and friends for their prayers.
The above isn't in topic with the thread, so I'll add one that is. In your above statement, I've bolded something that, to me, contradicts (or at least undermines) Christ's role as Redeamer and Intercessor to the Father. It's as though Catholics are adding an unneeded step into the mix. Would one need to eventually ask a Saint to ask Mary to pray to Jesus for me? Please note I mean no disrespect, it's an honest question.
The angel’s greeting to Mary - “Hail, full of grace” is a Scriptural example of someone (a heavenly being, no less!)ascribing honor and respect to Mary, because she was willing to bear Christ.
Also, Elizabeth’s greeting to her is Scripture: “Blessed are you among women.”
To honor another Christian for their yes to God points directly to Christ.
It's a miscommunication by some folks (quite possibly accidentally) of the term "co-redemptrix."
The doctrine of Mary as co-redemptrix states that she participates in the redemption of the world in a special way through her prayers; because of these prayers lead to the channeling of graces.
Two big hang-ups here that cause lots of confusion:
1) "Co-redemptrix" does not mean that Mary is in any way equal to Christ. The 'co' is a really misleading translation of the Latin 'cum,' meaning 'with.' Mary assists, but is not in any way equal to Christ. Her role would make no sense without Christ, and without His unique Sacrifice.
2) This is a doctrine, not a dogma. Though it is something that the Church teaches and considers laudable to believe, it is not something that is required to be believed. That is not to say that it might not become dogma, because it is something that has been held (though not always articulated in the same way) from the earliest days of the Church. The Immaculate Conception and Assumption are dogmas that have taken a similar path.
“Wrong - this has absolutely nothing to do with what is going on today. Citing this passage is bad exegesis, and unwarranted. You can’t compare asking an earthly Mary to go to her Son with asking a soul in heaven to interceded with her resurrected Son.”
Well, I guess we’ll just have to disagree on this point. But if I am truly guilty of “bad exegesis”, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
If one thing is certain, Mary did not influence Jesus to perform that miracle. God decided that would be the first miracle, not Mary. Jesus also clearly calls her “Woman”, now I have never called my mother “woman”, and I never will. She is my mother. No where in the Bible does it tell us to ask dead people to pray for us.
That's true (well not really, some historic Protestants still show homage to Mary, just not on the same level as Catholics).
The point is though that any that see "only one definition of worship" in Scripture have obviously never read Rev 3:9.
A while back (not too long ago) there were some rumblings about declaring Mary as co-redemptorix. Pope John Paul II eventually backed off. Even though Mary palyed a very unique role in salvation history declaring her co-redemptorix can be a little dicey in that it may be seen as her role is equal to Christ’s passion, death and resurrection (which it is not). I really think JP II had to have his Polish enthusiasm curbed a bit by a few reputable theologians—Whoa boy, not so fast. Also, I believe the Orthodox Church put their two cents in and said “not a good idea”. JP II had always wanted a better relationship with Eastern Orthodoxy, and saw that this declaration would sour things up a bit.
If you are praying TO President Bush, your father, or Dr. O'Neil, then yes. It's one thing to revere Mary, it is another thing altogether to pray to her. Prayer is an act of worship that can only be directed at the object of worship. By praying to Mary, I believe that a person crosses the thin line between reverence and worship.
Can I direct my prayers to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit? I believe so since they are part of the Triune God whom I am worshipping. Neither Mary nor the saints are.
I grew up Catholic. I love Catholic people. They are wonderful and God loving.
But...I think Catholicism is akin to a cult. I believe that it was established by the Roman government to control people.
Catholicism is rife with ritual and idol worship and discourages patrons from reading the bible, directing them instead to seek counsel with nuns and clergy, for they are supposedly the only true “saints”.
When I finally began to read the word, I discovered that I don’t need Mary to talk to the Lord. I can do it for myself.
Hope nobody is offended. I think that Catholics love Jesus, and that is what truly counts at the end of the day. I just prefer the more casual, less religious approach.
Uhh...us catholics don’t pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us similar......
I was trying to point out that Catholics have distinctions in the term "worship" which usually are foreign to the understanding of many Protestants. This is especially true when only modern secular definitions of the term are available and/or understood. Think of the titles and forms of address for nobility. "my Lord", "your Grace". These titles were not meant to suggest any kind of equality with God.
It gets very tiresome to have to answer the same accusations over and over again. It is quite simply the classic " have you stopped beating your wife" given a religious cloak.
It seems that there’s a fundamental difference between how Catholics and Protestants treat prayer.
To Protestants, prayer is equivalent to worship.
To Catholics, prayer is not quite the same, in that is merely ‘speaking spiritually’...or something to that degree. Prayer can be a form of worship, but not always?
That just leaves Mary as having some sort of "inside-track" to Jesus. That just doesn't make sense to me.
my recent decision to become a Catholic.
and
I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough,
Huh? You're joining the Church of Rome while admitting you don't know enough about what it teaches?
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