Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I'm perfectly serious. I gave you no interpretations; I gave you an observation that you can not deny.
As to how that observation applies to your question of prayers to Mary has yet to be discussed. But make no mistake, the verse does establish God changed the divine plan at her request.
I repeat, you cannot really be serious when you say this justifies anything we have been talking about!
Incredulity is not a refutation.
Are you denying the scripture says God changed the divine plan at her prompting?
Answer yea or nay, and we can proceed.
Do you think that God was not aware of the wedding at Cana? Do you think He actually was persuaded to change some "divine plan" for revealing the divinity of Jesus, just because Mary asked Him to perform miracle at a wedding? If so, you once again fail to reckon with the true nature of God.
I want to say this respectfully. But if you have not observed Catholic worship in the streets of a Filipino city, you cannot quite understand the different plane it is all on. I still contend that the views with regard to the “worship” of Mary in the United States takes into consideration only that form in the United States, and it is altogether different in predominantly Catholic countries (I mean like the Philippines, 95+%) that are comparatively backward. Their fears are deeper, the emotions involved run deeper and broader, the subjugation to every word of a priest is deeper.
The definition of “worship” you would debate. But no common American Catholic “worships” Mary to the depths of the Filipino Catholics. I was the pastor of a church in a Catholic village 2-1/2 hours south of Manila for six full years. Our church members (75 people) were the ONLY non-Catholics out of an area of perhaps 8,000 people.
I can tell you absolutely, there is NO place in the United States, NO Catholic church in America that would anywhere near approach the level of the exaltation of Mary that those Catholics in that village do every day. And it is EVERY day . . . EVERY day . . . EVERY day.
You might say, “That’s wonderful,” as you are a Catholic yourself. Okay. I tend to think that American Catholics in large numbers might actually be appalled by it and consider it far too excessive and extreme. Thay is, unless you take the position of co-EQUALITY of Mary with the Lord Jesus Christ, actually deifying her.
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40
And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9
No Christian must ever fall down to worship before the feet of his fellowservants, his brothers and sisters in Christ, prophets and angels. He must worship God alone.
Christ however according to His own will has said that He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to worship before the feet of those He loves.
To God be the glory!
And you fail to attend to the details of the text for the sake of your doctrine.
How would the writer of the book of Hebrews measure up to your exegetical standards with his expository comments about Melchizadek?
Good night.
later read
And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which [are] in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring [them] unto me. And all the people brake off the golden earrings which [were] in their ears, and brought [them] unto Aaron. And he received [them] at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These [be] thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
And when Aaron saw [it], he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow [is] a feast to the LORD. - Exodus 32:1-5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:1-6
So what do you make of Naaman the Syrian?
The scripture never explains why he was permitted to do something against the law, but can anyone deny he was given that permission?
Your entire article is right out of the Catholic play-book...Word for word...You don’t seem to have an independant thought on the issue...I’ll bet you’ve already purchased your Professional grade Bingo chips...
You did not know these people...There are written stories of these people...The stories may have been embellished...Some (or all) of these people may never have turned to Jesus for Salvation...You don't know...
Some (or all) of them could be in Hell...
And if that was to be true, where did your prayers go???
We are to pray for each other. We are not to pray to each other. The Triune God alone is the recipient of men's prayers.
These points seem so basic to a Christian faith that it's amazing to see some people proclaim the above errors as if they were something good and righteous.
They are not.
John Paul II used the term, "co-redeemer" for Mary on eight occasions during his papacy.
I doubt JPII was ever a FReeper, but you never know.
Read the following FR thread and hear all the motions to approve the title of "co-redeemer" for Mary.
Thank you for that post.
Has someone re-defined the prefix “co-”? Co-Redeeemer would mean equality to the Lord Jesus Christ. Isn’t that still the standard definition re. the prefix?
Co-Redeemer would mean Mary is EQUAL to Christ, Who is equal to the Father and the Holy Spirit. That would mean, not a “Trinity,” but a Quartet.
No, it hasn't been re-defined. It never did denote equality: only some form of union.
But does not the Vatican actually view the prefix “co-” as something much greater?
‘The Psalter of the Blessed Virgin’ is the celebrated St. Bonaventure. It appears to use the book of Psalms’titles, prayers and praises to address Mary, which David and others addressed to the blessed Jehovah.’ Examples (one needs to take their Bible and look at these Psalms himself):
Psalm 16: ‘Preserve me, O Lady, I have hope in thee etc’
Psalm 19: ‘The heavens declare thy glory, O Virgin Mary, and the balm of they perfume is spread over all nations etc.’
Psalm 25: ‘Unto thee, O Lady, do I lift up my soul, etc.’
Psalm 27: ‘O Lady, may the glory of thy countenance be my light etc.’
Psalm 32: ‘Blessed are they who cherish thee in their hearts, O Virgin Mary; their sins will be mercifully effaced by thee.’
Psalm 34: ‘I will bless our Lady at all times, and never shall per praise depart from my mouth.’
Psalm 42: ‘As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thy love, blessed Virgin.’
Psalm 46: ‘O Lady, thou art my refuge in all our necessities etc.’
Psalm 68: ‘Let Mary arise, and let her enemies be scattered.’
Psalm 83: ‘How amiable are thy tabernacles, O Lady of Virtues, etc.’
Psalm 91: ‘He who dwells in the confidence of the mother shall abide under her protection, etc.’
Psalm 110: ‘The Lord has said to our Lady, my mother, sit thou on my right hand, etc.’
Psalm 150: ‘Praise our Lady in her holiness, praise her in her virtue and miracles.’
Mary, God’s Mother
Joseph, God’s step-father
James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, God’s brothers
Elizabeth, God’s aunt
John the Baptist, God’s cousin
Heli, God’s grandfather
Adam, God’s 59th great grandfather.
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