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To: FourtySeven
Thank you so very much for sharing your insights!

I don't know how else to say it, other than to again point to Rev 3:9 for an example of men "worshipping" (paying HONOR to) other men, or otherwise to anticipate your response to simply be "ok, it's ok to give honor to people, but NOT to put them above God", which I hope you would NOT say, for the sake of avoiding redundancy.

Indeed, I would never say that any thing or any one should be honored equal to or greater than God. There is only one Great Commandment. The second, the love your neighbor commandment, is not the Great Commandment - it is a distant second.

Then one of them, [which was] a lawyer, asked [him a question], tempting him, and saying, Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. – Matthew 22:35-40

On the passage you cite, I'd offer another one from Revelation to put it in perspective:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. - Revelation 3:9

And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

The difference between the two is a matter of will.

No Christian must ever fall down to worship before the feet of his fellowservants, his brothers and sisters in Christ, prophets and angels. He must worship God alone.

Christ however according to His own will has said that He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to worship before the feet of those He loves.

To God be the glory!

206 posted on 05/30/2008 11:16:41 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
The difference between the two [Rev 3:9 and Rev 22:8-9] is a matter of will.

I agree and that's the Catholic position with regards to the "worship" of Mary and the Saints and the worship of God. I think it's also important to note that the exact same word "proskyneo" is used in both passages of Revelation. This therefore indicates that the word itself has different meanings in Scripture.

No Christian must ever fall down to worship before the feet of his fellowservants, his brothers and sisters in Christ, prophets and angels. He must worship God alone.

Christ however according to His own will has said that He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to worship before the feet of those He loves.

Here, while we were agreeing above, now seem to fall into disagreement again, for reasons I cannot fathom. You just indicated above that you can see the difference between Rev 3:9's "worship" and Rev 22:8's "worship", (that is, a matter of the heart), but yet right above, you seem to repeat the same mantra that "no one should worship anyone but God alone [by] worshipping at the feet of his fellow servants". However, that's exactly what occurred in Rev 3:9!

The men in Rev 3:9 were forced by God (Jesus) to worship (proskeyneo, which is where we get the term "prostration" from) "at the feet" of other men.

Of course it was God who forced some men to worship others, however that's a side issue. The issue is, since we know God is all-good and thus can never sin Himself, much less partake in sin, this also means He would never force men to do something sinful. IOW, it's ridiculous to say that God would actively promote sin, or cause men to sin, or, more precisely, cause men to commit blasphemy (and here, I'm not talking about the men doing the worshipping in 3:9, I'm talking about the men receiving it). IOW, if the men in Rev 3:9 were receiving worship unworthily, or, receiving worship due to God alone, then they themselves would be sinning by participating in such activity, participating by their willingness to receive the worship.

So we therefore must conclude that the form of worship in Rev 3:9 is perfectly permissible by God, because at no time, even in our future, could God ever promote sin, or cause someone to sin. Therefore, that form of "worship", which we Catholics would call either dulia or hyperdulia, is also acceptable in God's eyes, since we know at some point in the future (or in the past, depending on how one interprets that passage, but eschatological considerations aren't relevant here) God will/has force(d) men to worship at the feet of other men.

I guess one can take the hardline stance and say, "Well, I don't believe that there's ever a time that one should show honor to other men (by bowing down to them) ever, unless God specifically creates such a time, as in Rev 3:9". But again, that's a non-sequitor as it completely ignores the Command to "honor thy father and mother". Even beyond that consideration, it gets into ridiculousness if one insists that the simple, physical act of "bowing down" to another is somehow making that person a god. It doesn't, because, just as you yourself said above, it's a "matter of will", NOT the physical act itself that makes something "worship due to God alone".

974 posted on 06/02/2008 9:10:32 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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