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To: Alamo-Girl
The difference between the two [Rev 3:9 and Rev 22:8-9] is a matter of will.

I agree and that's the Catholic position with regards to the "worship" of Mary and the Saints and the worship of God. I think it's also important to note that the exact same word "proskyneo" is used in both passages of Revelation. This therefore indicates that the word itself has different meanings in Scripture.

No Christian must ever fall down to worship before the feet of his fellowservants, his brothers and sisters in Christ, prophets and angels. He must worship God alone.

Christ however according to His own will has said that He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to worship before the feet of those He loves.

Here, while we were agreeing above, now seem to fall into disagreement again, for reasons I cannot fathom. You just indicated above that you can see the difference between Rev 3:9's "worship" and Rev 22:8's "worship", (that is, a matter of the heart), but yet right above, you seem to repeat the same mantra that "no one should worship anyone but God alone [by] worshipping at the feet of his fellow servants". However, that's exactly what occurred in Rev 3:9!

The men in Rev 3:9 were forced by God (Jesus) to worship (proskeyneo, which is where we get the term "prostration" from) "at the feet" of other men.

Of course it was God who forced some men to worship others, however that's a side issue. The issue is, since we know God is all-good and thus can never sin Himself, much less partake in sin, this also means He would never force men to do something sinful. IOW, it's ridiculous to say that God would actively promote sin, or cause men to sin, or, more precisely, cause men to commit blasphemy (and here, I'm not talking about the men doing the worshipping in 3:9, I'm talking about the men receiving it). IOW, if the men in Rev 3:9 were receiving worship unworthily, or, receiving worship due to God alone, then they themselves would be sinning by participating in such activity, participating by their willingness to receive the worship.

So we therefore must conclude that the form of worship in Rev 3:9 is perfectly permissible by God, because at no time, even in our future, could God ever promote sin, or cause someone to sin. Therefore, that form of "worship", which we Catholics would call either dulia or hyperdulia, is also acceptable in God's eyes, since we know at some point in the future (or in the past, depending on how one interprets that passage, but eschatological considerations aren't relevant here) God will/has force(d) men to worship at the feet of other men.

I guess one can take the hardline stance and say, "Well, I don't believe that there's ever a time that one should show honor to other men (by bowing down to them) ever, unless God specifically creates such a time, as in Rev 3:9". But again, that's a non-sequitor as it completely ignores the Command to "honor thy father and mother". Even beyond that consideration, it gets into ridiculousness if one insists that the simple, physical act of "bowing down" to another is somehow making that person a god. It doesn't, because, just as you yourself said above, it's a "matter of will", NOT the physical act itself that makes something "worship due to God alone".

974 posted on 06/02/2008 9:10:32 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: FourtySeven; Dr. Eckleburg

I think the prostration ‘worship’ at men’s feet in Revelation is a particularly one time exception sort of thing.

In EVERY Biblical case and in EVERY Heavenly visitation case . . .

where folks have prostrated themselves before men, angels etc.

The stern rebuke is that ONLY GOD is worthy such.

The example in Rev, is, to me, quite clearly God exacting the sort of punishment for the prostraters that is most fitting—forcing them to do what they most deplore

while, in a sense, honoring GOD’S FAITHFUL servants . . . and doing so in a way that will make those faithful servants MOST humble and uncomfortable as that is NOT the standard order of Heaven nor all Creation.

In the Revelation example, it seems clear that the priority goal from God’s perspective is to force a very tailor made, most hated discipline, punishment on those prostrating themselves on them.

However, Prottys are used to some RC’s creating skyscrapers of dogma built on a toothpick foundation.


1,001 posted on 06/02/2008 11:29:07 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: FourtySeven; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
Thank you for sharing your views - we will however remain in disagreement on what we spiritually discern in those two passages.

Again, for the record, the Spiritual emphasis I have received in the first passage is as follows:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. - Revelation 3:9

In other words, it is the will of God not man at work here. His will is that those He has chosen to reject because they said they were Jews and were not - will be made by Him to worship before the feet of those He loves. God rejects their worship of Him and forces them to worship those He loves.

That is not a carte blanche for any man ever to willfully worship before the feet of another being, whether alive in the flesh or not. That behavior is expressly forbidden.

The first passage is therefore perfectly consistent with this passage from the same book:

And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. - Revelation 22:8-9

The difference between the two passages is clear to me. But if it isn't to you, then so be it.

To God be the glory, not man, never man!

1,019 posted on 06/02/2008 12:33:30 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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