Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
The Romans believed in free trade especially when it came to gods and goddesses. They were equal opportunity worshipers.
BTW would you recommend Issis Pharmaceutical stock? You seem to have insider knowledge.
I have asked may Catholics, including my Mother in law, her priest, nuns at the Catholic school my wife attended (Saint Marys in Leavenworth, KS) and my recovering Catholic wife.
I have received an consistent response from them but I’m more than willing to hear the opinions of others.
If you do not want a thread to be “open” for discussion, then you must tag it as something else. Click on my profile page for guidelines to the Religion Forum.
Making requests of Mary because she is held in such reverence is another issue altogether. Scripture makes it clear that Jesus Christ is the mediator and intercessor on behalf of His people. This is never defined as Mary's role. To give an honor to Mary which rightfully belongs to her son is to dishonor the one to whom the honor truly belongs. Denying to God what is rightfully His is of course the essence of idolatry.
Offering sacrifice is intrinsically an act of worship, and can only be offered to God.
Psalm 141:2, Proverbs 15:8, Isaiah 56:7, and other verses equate prayer and sacrifice. Prayer, as used in Scripture, has a sacred use as an element of worship.
I will go with Epiphanius instead of Pius XII. A little closer to the times and arguing from silence is not a bad idea considering the lack of evidence. Let us leave our eternal souls out of this “assumption” and go with those who actually saw/interviewed/wrote down Jesus Christ die rising again and going up to Heaven.
Even if Filipinos would agree to such a label for their devotion to Mary (something I doubt), they STILL wouldn't be violating Scripture at all. Read Rev 3:9. It's just as Catholics have always said: Honor bestowed to the Saints and Mary (dulia and hyperdulia respectively), do not violate Scripture at all, they are forms of "worship" that show honor and respect to men (or women of course) of higher rank. In fact, such acts are supported by the passage above.
You'll note if you do a word search on the word used for "worship" in Rev 3:9, it's the exact same word used to describe the actions of men worshipping God in other Scripture passages. It depends on the context (heart of the person involved), as to which definition of proskyneo is applicable.
I wanted thoughts from both Catholics and Protestants here, so I’m good. I’ll keep that in mind though, so thanks.
No. The early Christians were true believers and sincere in their faith. The Roman state was not.
Actually, I am not a Protestant. I am a Baptist and currently am a member in a non-denominational church.
FWIW, Mary was a wonderful woman who fulfilled a task she was given by God. All the other stuff is nonsense for those that can't place their Faith Alone in Christ Alone.
Is your conversion for real, or is it just another phoney baloney story?
Woman = Eve. Woman since then = women.
That seems an unfair criticism. Which of us has a detailed knowledge of a denomination before involving ourselves? Which of us can say we have enough knowledge even now of denominations we have been in for years?
While I disagree with the poster’s decision, and believe there is an error in abandoning Sola Scriptura for Catholic doctrine, I am willing to accept it is not a blind decision, just a wrong one. :-)
I’m dead serious.
Given the history of the Church - warts and all, ala the Reformation - I wanted to hear from a number of sides as I learn more. I may be attending a Catholic Church, but I won’t be a Catholic until after I learn more. That sort of thing.
These past two days on the Religion forum have been a pretty enlightening experience.
In the end, all I can say is that all - and I mean ALL - people have fallen short of the glory of God. Yet He still sacrificed His Son for our sake.
The romans had stacked bath tubs in their backyards for female goddesses?
what exactly are we talking about?
who keeps bath tubs in their back yard?
I come from a long line of poor Catholic white trash but even my grandmother never had a bath tub in her yard.
The Mass itself is a prayer. Catholics are encouraged to be always at prayer, and fervently so!!
Are you currently attending Mass regularly, if I may ask?
It's probably a loan word from Aramaic. The meaning is closer to what you have above, which is how most modern translations render it: vain babbling, useless words, etc.
"Repetition" in prayer is not wrong. Scripture says that Jesus prayed the same way three times in the garden of Gethsemane. Ps 136 is one of the most relentlessly repetitive texts you'll read anywhere.
I’ll be attending regularly starting next week.
With people drinking the wine. :-)
That's the only one that was condemned as heretical.
Let us leave our eternal souls out of this “assumption” and go with those who actually saw/interviewed/wrote down Jesus Christ die rising again and going up to Heaven.
Sorry, I'm not following what you're saying.
Smiling. Absolutely:)
No, denying to God what is rightfully His is the sin of faithlessness. Atheists do that, but they aren't idolaters.
Giving to something created what is rightfully God's is the essence of idolatry.
And the Catholic church doesn't endorse either path.
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