The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

[Ultra Sonic 007]

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

[Petronski]

It never occured to me that she meant Catholics. Sheesh, what a silly claim.

[Antoninus]

God understands what we need before we even ask. God hears all prayers, but He knows our prayers before we say them. He knows what we require before we ask. He knows what will become of us even as we pray for something to occur or not occur.

There's some good Calvinist doctrine which puts God in a box, eviscerates human life of meaning and eliminates the concept of free will. If what you say is true, then why pray at all? It's this kind of logic that leads some Protestants to universalism, then to agnosticism, and ultimately, atheism.

As for me, I don't presume to understand the actions of Almighty God. If He chooses to hear the prayers of the saints in heaven, who am I to say that He doesn't? If He chooses to hear the prayers of sinners on Earth, who am I to say that He shouldn't?

Again, the humility thing seems to be an issue for some of my separated brethren.

[OLD REGGIE]

Well, I won't name names. I may get permission later, but it has to do with keeping confidence and protecting informants.

If these "names" are from private replies or email I agree with you completely. If they are from posts there is no need to protect them.

The puzzler? Informants? Are you an undercover Dominican?

In the meantime, though, I don't need to. First, I am not talking about a theory, I am talking about something I know, so it doesn't matter to me whether or not those who have shown themselves prepared to argue the toss while handing out slurs believe me or not. The relevant people know, and if they want you in their little treehouse of horrors, I'm sure they'll invite you.

Are you currently in the witness protection program?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Men's prayers show their concern, Pet. And for that I would thank anyone who prayed for me, as I said.

DR. E: Do the prayers of others heal you, Petronski? Or does God heal you?

PETRONSKI: God does. Please don't insinuate Catholicism teaches anything else.

Well, now we're getting somewhere. Because that's not what Antoninus wrote which is why I rebutted his rhetorical question to MarySecretary...

MARY SECRETARY: Prayers are answered only by God through His Son. Give HIM the credit for the miraculous.

ANTONINUS: So if you have an illness and a bunch of people are praying for you, do you say "thank you" to them if you recover?

Looks like Antoninus clearly is suggesting he says "thank you to them" if he recovers.

As you said, this is an error. God alone heals us, not the prayers of others.

[maryz]

I wouldn’t have expected you to understand.

[Petronski]

Looks like Antoninus clearly is suggesting he says "thank you to them" if he recovers.

That's silly. He says "thank you to them" for praying for him.

[Petronski]

Do not call me Pet. I am not anyone’s pet.

[OLD REGGIE]

Father Phleger was immediately stoped, who is going to stop Rev. Wright? The lack of leadership is a real problem for non-Catholic christians.

Please check your facts. Father Phleger has a long history.

[1000 silverlings]

Mary is not the new Eve

The Hebrew word used for "woman" in Genesis implies a married woman, not a mother. Adam's spouse was not his mother.

Christ's spouse is also not his mother. Spiritual Israel is the true spouse and the "woman" spoken of both here and in the book of Revelation.

[OLD REGGIE]

Is this from the RC bible?

Yes.

[Petronski]

It is from the Septuagint.

[wagglebee]

Seems to me that anyone who believes in the Holy Trinity would be happy—even anxious—to say so.

It's somewhat reminiscent of the way the Rooty Rooters were last year when we tried to pin them down on conservative issues.

[DungeonMaster]

4. From the moment of Mary’s consent, the mystery of the Incarnation becomes a reality. The Son of God enters our world and begins to live as a man, while remaining fully God. From that moment Mary becomes the Mother of God.

This is the highest title that can be given to a creature. It is totally justified in Mary’s case, because a mother is mother of the person of her son in the complete fullness of his humanity. Mary is the "Mother of God" inasmuch as she is the Mother of the "Son of God’, even if this motherhood is defined in the context of the mystery of the Incarnation.

Thanks for posting this example of worship of Mary. She is credited with everything that God has done through the incarnation of His Son. She is given this credit by the RCC, NOT by God. Never in the bible is this credit implied. It is known that the bible doesn't give her this credit and the response is that the bible is not complete or sufficient and who am I to pretend to understand it anyway.

[Petronski]

Thanks for posting this example of worship of Mary.

What an exquisite example of The Game.

[trisham]

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/tobit/tobit6.htm

[wagglebee]

She is credited with everything that God has done through the incarnation of His Son.

She isn't credited with ANYTHING other than CONSENTING to God's request. Are you suggesting that the Blessed Mother DID NOT have the option of declining?

[Petronski]

Never in the bible is this credit implied.

Catholics are not hamstrung by the non-Scriptural error known as sola scriptura.

[OLD REGGIE]

If you're interested in joining the Vast Reformed Wing Conspiracy I can email the particulars.

Would I be required to take a blood oath? Could I leave the "gang" without fear of retribution.

I dunno. I'm intrigued but frightened.

I have been invited to swim back across the Tiber. Maybe I'll do so, insinuate myself into the "Catholic Apologist League", become a "mole" and sell information to your organization.

You see, I'm not frightened of retribution from the loving Catholics. If caught I'm certain that they'd merely pray for me.

[trisham]

Perhaps you might consider reading from the source, for which a link was provided. It might help.

[netmilsmom]

>>no, it’s meant to tweek the people who worship MARY instead of GOD (as they should)<<

Phew! I thought you were talking about Catholics!!!!!