Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
I thought it was just twice too. Of course, I could be wrong as well. Maybe it just seemed like 3-4 times. :D
Well, I did not realize that a counter was running on how many times I said something...I still think it was only twice....perhaps I am getting forgetful?
While we’re at it, we might as well look at the counter to check to see how many times “White Hankies” and “RC edifice” and “rubber dictionary” have been said.
Was it twice? Or maybe three or four times? Honestly, I forget. They all run together, especially with the colored fonts and
dramatic
spacing.
I got confused on whose post I was replying to, I think, or at the moment I didn’t want it to appear as a specific reply to any partuclar item.
I await with bated breath the definitive treatise on “The Abuse Button, Theory and Practice, with Consideration of the Care and Feeding of Moderators”
A blessed Sunday to you.
Since when should any of us (all Catholics or all Protestants) get grouped like that? No one of us should be responsible for the actions of another.
Besides, slander is based on the truth or falsity of the claim being examined... it doesn't matter who is speaking the slander and who is accusing, if the claim isn't true, it's slander.
2. If I come up with such a testimonial by an MD in good standing in his community, will you repent of such outrageous statements against Pastor Wright?
It takes more than one MD to be convincing. Might I suggest the way that we've done it for centuries when examining cases for canonization of Saints: a panel of doctors concluding that there is no natural explanation whatsoever for the healing.
Have we thrown out cases that were probably miraculous intercession? Yes, but that random treatment here or there for whatever it was cast a grain of doubt. But even in those that were naturally explainable, it was certainly God's mercy and benevolence that brings about the healing.
BTW... I'm happy to put my two cents in, but just out of curiosity, why was I pinged?
*******************
I can't answer that, but I can say this:
Excellent post!
This is REALLLLLLLLY INCREDIBLE.
1. The statement was made that he was the same as all the other ‘faith healers’ and by implication or direct assertion, therefore just as much a charlatan. It was not an issue of individual human uniqueness.
2. His ministry is wholesale different. As a 61 year participant observer in such, his whole ministry is wholesale different. That’s just a fact. His ministry is wholesale unique. Thankfully, he’s been sharing now for many years and it’s not so unique any more. But initially, it was one of a kind. That’s just a fact.
Generally speaking, not in and of itself.
Theoretically, Pastor Wright (not taking the facts in his case and God’s perspective abou doing so into account), Pastor Wright is as much fair game for anti-perspectives as anyone else. In that sense, feel free. Shred him up one side and down the other. I’d advise, however, being ready to answer His Master for any inaccurate assertions or bad-faith, evil motives in doing so.
He really is an exceedingly humble man. He knows it’s unwise and won’t work for him or his ministry or his team to become a substitute nipple for anyone. He behaves in many ways to prevent that. He structures and operates things to put the information down into Believers, individuals at the individual, personal need level for THE INDIVIDUAL to transact their own healing business with God directly. His whole paradigm has insisted from the beginning that THATS’ WHERE IT HAS TO BE.
In nearly every instance of "miraculous healing" there are examples of the same healing outside of a religous setting.
I remain a skeptic. The "Healing" Shrines and Ministries are big business though.
Catholics have a long history of healing in Christ, for instance, Fr. Francis McNutt,
“In the 37 years that MacNutt has claimed the gift of supernatural healing, he has seen people cured of everything from asthma, allergies and heart disease to high blood pressure, cancer and torn arches. He once prayed for a woman and then watched as her foot grew to its normal size, from size 5 to 7-1/2. In 1982 a woman’s brain tumor disappeared when he prayed—and after she returned home to South Carolina her doctor documented the miracle.
MacNutt’s methods are not always orthodox. Often he will stand in front of an audience and sing in an unknown language. He doesn’t know what he’s saying, and neither do the people in the crowd, but listeners are sometimes healed just by hearing the heavenly glossolalia...”
http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=9231
I was healed by the prayers and intercession of Blessed Teresa. The very large cancerous tumor is present on MRI, but at surgery, it was just about gone. Still had to be removed, but with no further treatment and no problems.
What we distrust, and rightly so, are poorly documented “healings.” One doctor, or set of tests proves nothing.
Another red flag is the cottage industry that this “healer” has created around his industry. His fees are pretty steep.
“I’d advise, however, being ready to answer His Master for any inaccurate assertions or bad-faith, evil motives in doing so.”
Yes, you should consider all you say. You will account. Nothing is hidden, not even the motivation deep within you that takes its form in derision, hatefilled sneering colorworked words hiding a self-righteous soul steeped in contempt.
Still, an attribution is good form.
If you have difficulty forming your own thoughts and words I imagine your only recourse is to plagarize.
I have asked for evidence of a "miraculous healing" which is totally unique. One which is not known to have been duplicated anywhere else.
So far no takers?
“I have asked for evidence of a “miraculous healing” which is totally unique. One which is not known to have been duplicated anywhere else.”
“In 1947 Gemma Di Giorgi, who was born without pupils, lived in Ribera in Sicily. There was no medical hope of her ever seeing. While her parents accepted this diagnosis, her grandmother did not. She made the long journey to San Giovanni Rotondo with the little girl, full of faith in the powers of Padre Pio. They were among the crowd of the faithful attending his Mass when at the end while the silence was at its peak everyone heard a voice calling: “Gemma, come here!” The Grandmother pushed her way up to the altar with the child and knelt down before the Saint whom they had come so far to see. He smiled at Gemma and told her that she must make her first Communion. He heard her Confession and then stroked her eyes with his hand. She received Holy Communion by herself and when afterwards her grandmother asked her if she had asked for any favor from Padre Pio the little girl answered: “No, Little Grandmother, I forgot!” Padre Pio saw them later and said: “May the Madonna bless you Gemma. Be a good girl!” At this moment the child gave a frantic cry, she could see a permanent cure although her eyes still had no pupils! She has been examined by many doctors who have testified to the case and are able to offer no scientific explanation.”
Of course, St. Pio has been called any number of hideous names and called evil on this very FR religion forum.
She still can see, and she still does not have pupils.
~But it’s about a Catholic. Therefore it cannot be true because they are just not Christians. /s
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